TubeNet

So,

I propose (like the Human Genome Project), a blind test comparison of various Mouthpieces and Tubas.

Mouthpieces
-Must be done by a well-known/recieved player
-Player must play on mouthpieces at least 1 week prior to test.
-Panel of judges must also consist of well-known people in the brass world.
-Player must use same tuba (preferably for all blind tests)(Tuba must also be well-known and popular(Mira 186, King, et.cetera))
-A good recording must be supplied to give viewers their own views.

Tubas
-Must be done by a well-known/recieved player.
-If in different keys, player must rehearse/practice with both tubas.
-Panel is made up of well-known people in the brass world.
-Tubas can be supplied by volunteers, or by the company itself.
-As said before, good recording.
-Player must use same mouthpiece for all tests.(Preferably primary pieces)


If done right, this can be a huge resource for Tuba players, and if liked by many, can be done on more brass instruments, who I suppose will also like this.

Other than listing dimensions, buyers do not know how it will sound until they put it on they're face.

Judges must write comments, and may/may not choose the mouthpiece/tuba they like better (It's not really a competition but ok).

Do you think it's a possibility?
p.s. add anymore rules that you think are needed for a better testing environment.

This would take all the fun out of a lifetime of searching for the perfect tuba/mouthpiece.

At least the TNFJ would spend a lifetime pointing out the flaws in the process.

Besides, we already have "the list!!"

lost wrote:How do we account for two players who use the same mouthpiece but sound completely different?

My best answer to that would to have players grouped into very broad and general sounds. Not as broad as in "German" or "American", but not that far off from them. Have 3-6 players of merit with different sounds pursue different mouthpiece and horn comparisons. After that, players can Identify with the sound they are most alike to, and watch/listen to the same player try out different mouthpieces/horns. It's better than having 1 player try different mouthpieces/horns.

In regards to: "Judges must write comments, and may/may not choose the mouthpiece/tuba they like better (It's not really a competition but ok)." Assign an arbitrary number/identifier to each mp/tuba and have the players behind a scrim. It would be anonymous and more scientufic.

Most of it might be interesting, audio recordings of different gear in a standardized recording environment. It might be helpful to someone once in a while. I listened to something like that prior to picking out a set of electric bass strings, for what it's worth. Mouthpieces are a much more individual matter, owing to considerable differences between people's lips, teeth etc., but tubas might show some intrinsic character, for all I know.

I would skip the panel of judges. I would be sorry to hear that anyone would select his or her own equipment based on the verdict from a panel of judges.

Would never happen. Too much work and useless.

Ken Crawford wrote:Would never happen. Too much work and useless.

Now that I think more about it, yeah it wouldn't.
Since people are different, different stuff work for them (aka bloke's #1 hated mouthpiece the 24AW).

My wife the saxophonist tells me this has already been done for that instrument, and people cannot guess what set up they are hearing.

Doc wrote:My immediate list for comprehensive reviews that have few or no reviews (or not comprehensive enough):

Miraphone Siegfried
Miraphone Hagen 496
Eastman 632 CC
Eastman 562 BBb (GR 51 copy)
Mack Brass 210
Wessex Luzern
Wessex XL/Schiller Heritage Symphonic
Nirschl 6/4 CC
John Packer 379BB
MW 25
MW Baer
MW Fafner
MW Fasolt
Miraphone Elektra
JBL Classic
King 2341 (new style)
Bohland & Fuchs Kaiser BBb (not sure how many exist)
Wessex Berg
GR 55
B&S Symphonie
Alexander 164 BBb and CC
Kanstul Grand CC and BBb
HB-12

If anyone has these instruments and can do a thorough review (with good video and sound quality), that would be great. Of course, this stuff is like crack for me, but certainly beneficial. With, of course, the understood proviso that trying instruments for one's self is the best method of selecting instruments.

I especially want to hear reviews on Mack Brass, since there aren't that many around (reviews not the tubas).

However wrong I may be, I still am a firm believer that tubist A is going to sound like tubist A regardless of the equipment.

Doc wrote:

Dubby wrote:However wrong I may be, I still am a firm believer that tubist A is going to sound like tubist A regardless of the equipment.

Gene Pokorny sounds like Gene Pokorny on whatever instrument he plays. So does Arnold Jacobs. And Dave Kirk. And Dubby. And Bloke. And Doc. But the color or personality of any given instrument will be perceptible to a lesser or greater extent. If you listen to and compare Chris Olka’s tuba review videos, Chris sounds like himself in every one, but they are in no way exactly the same. Tom McGrady’s videos, Dylan King’s videos, or just about any other player’s videos/sound clips definitely show the characteristics of each individual tuba. The individual horn doesn’t change the player’s general sound or abilities,. The player is the constant in the equation, the tuba is the variable, and the result will vary, even if only slightly. In some cases, the result may not sound much different, but the different instrument may make it easier to achieve said plyer’s goals.

I agree. (to both statements).
For example, just for fun, I played on the school's 3/4 Miraphone (pretty banged up). Low range became a bit harder to reach, and overall projection and was decreased (not by much though).

ren wrote:I will with an edit add a controversial statement to illustrate my point: If every tuba player in the US stopped playing miraphones and had a hirsbrunner instead, the whole of US tuba student body would be improved in sound and ability.

I think you distract from your more legitimate point with this. That there's a perceptible and somewhat predictable playing difference between tuba models that are physically significantly different - hard to argue with that, if you have ever been confronted with that comparison.

That one would be unequivocally better than the other, is a whole different can of worms. Especially the can you opened, where it's one manufacturer vs. another - the worms are coming out of the can to dance the hula now.

You would not want to hear Gene Pokorny play in the CSO on a miraphone 186

Why the hell not? Do you really think 186's are crap horns that no one would sound good on? There's a reason they have been a best-selling instrument for the last fifty years or so. I've heard Gene on a 186, many times, and he sounded awesome!

If every tuba player in the US stopped playing miraphones and had a hirsbrunner instead, the whole of US tuba student body would

...sound about the same.

deleted

deleted

I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish here. It sounds like there's a personal struggle going on, where we aren't really able to control our desire to say that it's all about the player, but in the face of the absurdity of that statement when put so baldly, we're making kind of a poor dance of it.

Does anyone really want to come out and say that there's no value in hearing, say, videos of Olka playing two different tubas that a person might be interested in? Same guy/mouthpiece/studio, different tubas - couldn't learn anything of value from this? If that does seem like it could be worth listening to, then what's to argue about?

I don't think anyone's saying that's all there is to it. How well built, how much money, how heavy, can't reach the mouthpiece, big valves hurt my hand, whatever - and of course, the variation to be expected between one tuba and the next out of the same production line. So if everyone who wants to offer a tuba for Doc's consideration is willing to arrange to appear at his place of residence, at the same time as everyone else, and that offer stands for anyone else who might be interested in a tuba, then I withdraw my support for the idea that comparison videos might be worth listening to.

Donn wrote:...then I withdraw my support for the idea that comparison videos might be worth listening to.

...with a really good set of earphones.

deleted

Over the years I have worked with very good players who for various reasons had to replace the instruments that they had been using for many years. (in particular I am thinking of clarinets, saxophones, trombones, and trumpets.) In each case the new instrument made the player sound different for a while, but after a month or two they sounded exactly like they did before the switch. They learned how to make the horn sound the way they wanted it to sound, i.e. their own personal sound. But it takes more than a week. The thing about choosing the right instrument is how easy or difficult it is for the individual to get the sound that he or she wants. What's right for one person will be wrong for another.