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the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:11 pm
by bloke
I actually believe I've discovered the cause, and it's so obvious that I'm embarrassed that I didn't figure it out decades ago.

I'm not going to reveal what I believe is the cause - not even privately, because the other outspoken, here, won't agree with me anyway.

I am, though, going to presume an asshological "above the fray" posture, and - if anyone accepts the troll, here, watch others present all the same old proposed causes and offer all the same old proposed cures.

yes...This is a troll, because I'm attempting to goad people into posting.

yes...I honestly believe that I've discovered the primary cause of embouchure octave buzzing.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:38 pm
by Matt Walters
What is, "embouchure octave buzzing". Definition please.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:54 pm
by bloke
Matt Walters wrote:What is, "embouchure octave buzzing". Definition please.


flattered/honored that you would read my troll, sir"

blokepedia wrote:attempting to play a pitch, but it comes out as two pitches - an octave apart


I didn't say that I wouldn't state what does ~not~ cause it...so this (below) is something that (though many believe it is the cause, because this condition is related) does ~not~ directly cause it:

- fatigue

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 pm
by TheTuba
bloke wrote:

yes...This is a troll, because I'm attempting to goad people into posting.



First time I heard a troller admit to the troll before anyone posted LOL.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 pm
by bort
Cause
Image

Solution
Image

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:51 pm
by TheTuba
Question:
I never found holding the tuba on my lap as normal. It felt heavy and slippy. Is it alright if I put it on my chair? As I grow taller would I have to change to a "lap" position?

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm
by iiipopes
Awwww....
You know I am off the wall enough with my theories of how the universe works, (or brass instruments, for that matter - pun intended) that I would probably agree with you.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:59 am
by ren
I believe there are many possible causes but since I have had a little of this lately, Id be interested for you to share what you think the causes are as a mouthpiece maker.

:)

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:33 am
by timothy42b
Is this the "double buzz?"

I vote for loss of control of lower lip as cause, and firming that up a bit as cure. There may be other causes too.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:38 am
by PlayTheTuba
What about tightly-torqued or long-time-screwed-together components?

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:06 am
by brassbow
I agree with the double buzz. A double buzz is where the upper and . Lower lip vibrate on different frequencies. Here is my solution ( passes salt around)

First when the double buzz happens allow it to continue to get the feel of the wrong way. Next slowly THINK about a slight change. Changes are sometimes less then a millimeter differences. By thinking you are allowing the micro adustments to happen as apposed to doing as more muscles get involved on a subconscious level. Once you get the feel when the double buzz disappears, play to remember the right feeling. To cement the idea allow your lips to double buzz then adjust so no double buzz. As a longtone doublebuz then corrected,double, then correct. Do this untill you can double buzz at will. It's called control

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:56 am
by timothy42b
brassbow wrote:I agree with the double buzz. A double buzz is where the upper and . Lower lip vibrate on different frequencies. Here is my solution ( passes salt around)



Probably it's side to side. At least, according to some people who've thought about it more than I.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:51 am
by ren
bloke wrote:I actually believe I've discovered the cause, and it's so obvious that I'm embarrassed that I didn't figure it out decades ago.

I'm not going to reveal what I believe is the cause


I can do something which I use to think was a double buzz. But which is not, I call it a hyper buzz, and its pretty freaky because it defies the laws of tuba.
Or maybe it doesnt and I just dont get it.

Anyway, I dont think you should cop out on this because you think peeps wont agree with you. Just tell us what you think.
Even pros have been completely freaked out by the double buzz, so lets dispell the myth starting with u :)

You make mouthpieces after all, why the hangup?

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:11 pm
by bloke
OK... :|

"fatigued muscles"...?? sure...of course...obviously...

BUT...

MORE THAN "fatigued muscles", it is

"fatigued muscles trying to play a pitch on a tuba that is the wrong length".

I (yeah, as in the original post: "it's so obvious that I'm embarrassed that I didn't figure it out decades ago") FINALLY discovered that pitches that split into octaves are pitches where my TIRED muscles (yes, but...) are trying to "lip/favor" pitches in tune, rather than the tuba being the correct length for that troublesome pitch to resonate.
...move a slide...use a flatter/sharper (whichever is appropriate) fingering...etc...OR (simply) play the pitch out-of-tune (at the frequency that the tuba's given length prefers to resonate) It STOPS. :shock:

I don't read very much on trombone forums about this problem. :arrow: :idea:

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:35 pm
by ren
Thats pretty interesting. but what if the player is the problem, trying to buzz the pitch and the pitch is off but the instrument is the right length.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:40 pm
by bloke
ren wrote:Thats pretty interesting. but what if the player is the problem, trying to buzz the pitch and the pitch is off but the instrument is the right length.


That person, then, SHOULD be playing the PIANO...you know, the piano in their den, of in the back of their own house. :lol:

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:24 pm
by timothy42b
bloke wrote:OK... :|

I don't read very much on trombone forums about this problem. :arrow: :idea:


Well, that one I can answer authoritatively, because I live mostly on trombone forums.

Yes. We talk it extensively. Once the habit forms it can be tough to break. I think after considerable discussion over a length of time we've arrived at consensus.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:36 pm
by bloke
For me, "accurate slide positions" is the reason that I know longer attempt to double on bass trombone...
...It simply requires too much maintenance time (for me).
I still suspect that anyone who has trouble with this (regardless of the brass instrument) is
- tired
- trying to buzz a different pitch than is defined by the length of the instrument (whether the buzz frequency is "off", or whether the length of the air column is "off"...either way, they aren't matching up, and this acoustical mismatch is causing - yeah, along with muscle exhaustion - the conflict/interference.)

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:53 pm
by ren
My bass trombone sound IS a double buzz. Dont let me near one.

Re: the cause of embouchure octave buzzing

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:22 am
by timothy42b
I don't disagree with bloke at all about the problem of playing a pitch on the wrong length of tubing. I believe it to be a major problem on tuba and trombone. When you chip a note that's the most common cause. (It can come from either direction - think the wrong pitch for your tubing length, even slightly, and you get a chipped note or bad tone; think the right pitch for the note, and have the tubing length wrong and the same thing happens.)

Where I disagree is the idea that trombonists don't have that problem. They have infinitely adjustable tubing length, why would they ever do it wrong? But as bloke notes, it isn't that easy to get every position dialed in in every octave, and hit them at speed.

You have to make the tubing the right length. You have to think and set for the right pitch. Depending somewhat on the range, you also have to have the mouthpiece angle just right, and the tongue level right. I was experimenting this morning on trombone, playing a G above middle C. With the slide right, angle right, pitch firmly in my brain, I succeeded in consistently chipping the start of the note simply by using a wrong vowel sound.