Anticipating the beat

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MaryAnn
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Anticipating the beat

Post by MaryAnn »

I'm just musing here, basically. Our former local symphony pro, since retired and moved to Hawaii, clearly anticipated the beat, especially noticeable if you were playing with him (we were jamming once with me on fiddle and I kept trying to catch up with him but the more I tried to catch him the faster we went......) But out in the audience, even sitting in the first row for the symphony brass quintet, it sounded "just right." He was very amenable to playing with the amateur groups who asked him to fill in....one concert I was playing something else (horn or euph?) and there were two tubas, this guy and a local reasonably good amateur. They were never, ever together because the pro guy anticipated the beat and the amateur guy was always an echo more or less.

The other local pro I have played fiddle with, did not anticipate the beat.

How many of you anticipate the beat?
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by scottw »

It's a pretty narrow window from playing "on top of the beat" to rushing the beat. Our job as bass players-string or tuba- is to play on top, but not get carried away, either. :D
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Donn »

MaryAnn wrote:especially noticeable if you were playing with him (we were jamming once with me on fiddle and I kept trying to catch up with him but the more I tried to catch him the faster we went......) But out in the audience, even sitting in the first row for the symphony brass quintet, it sounded "just right."
...
The other local pro I have played fiddle with, did not anticipate the beat.
"Fiddle" is a clue that we may have switched style of music here, from the typical brass quintet fare? That makes a difference. I wouldn't ever play ahead of the beat for any kind of music I know, but would play more up on it for some than others. A bass who isn't way into the particular style could play farther up on the beat than you're used to.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by jeopardymaster »

I might be able to get away with anticipating if I were the only tuba player, but NEVER in a section. That's just rude. As rude as playing behind. I try to stay right on top, same as scottw. It's sort of like telling the truth - it's easier to keep your story straight that way.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by timothy42b »

When I direct, ictus and beat coincide.

This is not true for many, especially choral and orchestral conductors. When I play or sing for one of them, I tend to be ahead of the beat until I realize and adjust. I sing for a very fine choral director whose beat is long past ictus, and I'll be accused of rushing if I watch him too closely.

Just another complication.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Jay Bertolet »

Funny story:

Many years ago, I was in an orchestra and we were auditioning assistant conductors. We did this at a pops concert and the music director ended up sitting right behind our section to watch the candidates and evaluate them. We did typical outdoor pops fare. Some Leroy Anderson, 1812, other typical Americana pops concert music. After the first half of the program, the music director came up to us and said that he was amazed at how far ahead of the beat we played. He really couldn't fathom how we played absolutely together and so far ahead of the beat and, further, that it always sounded right out front.

If you spend enough time together as a section, you definitely get a sense of exactly where that thin line is. I used to practice that at home by playing with a metronome and really focusing on exactly where I articulated notes compared to exactly when the metronome clicked. There is definitely a front side and a back side. Knowing that you're in the back row and the sound has to travel, the reality become obvious.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by windshieldbug »

It's what the ensemble wants, sort of like the delayed Ormandy beat of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
God help the sub who followed the tip of the baton and came in.
Now no longer the norm, but it's the director/ensemble culture...

You do what is expected, and you'd better know before you get there!
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Donn »

Jay Bertolet wrote:There is definitely a front side and a back side. Knowing that you're in the back row and the sound has to travel, the reality become obvious.
The way I see it, the travel time would be on the order of 1/50 of a second, does that sound right? Elapsed time between players who are about 8 yards apart. A little less than the duration of a 16th note at q=120.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Ben »

Answer: Yes I anticipate. In my community orchestra, there are differences between sections as to where the beat is. The Bass/low ww/trombones almost always agree. It took a long time to figure out exactly what worked. In professional ensembles - there is no question in my mind what fits in, and everyone in the section agrees on it - regardless of how long we may have played together. Its quite fantastic.

This past weekend I performed with Novus NY on 3 works - in various different placement to the conductor.
Copeland Fanfare - sitting in the back,
an choral work for brass quintet, chior , organ, and percussion - positioned close to the conductor with the chorus placed in a balcony FAR behind
another orchestra work in the back row.

All of the work in the back row was easy to integrate with my coleagues, but when moved up to the front row, with the choir in aproximate same position to us, I had to readjust, as my normal playing put me a good bit ahead of the beat. Quite nerve racking!

Here is a link to the video of the concert. 0m copeland. ~18m for the quintet work. - end for the last work.
https://www.trinitywallstreet.org/video ... tein-100-7" target="_blank" target="_blank
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Donn »

According to Cal Tjader, in an interview I heard on the radio back in the '70s so this is only a fuzzy recollection, but he found it almost impossible to use jazz bass players on his Latin stuff, because they play too far back.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by paulver »

Boy!!!! Am I glad that someone brought this up!!!

There is a tuba player in our community band who suddenly decided to take the tempos into his own hands. He started to rush the tempos, regardless of what the conductor was doing. The old band director in me kicked into gear and I demonstratively played slower..... just to slow him down. I even stopped playing to conduct right in front of him. Neither effort worked. It got progressively worse for the remaining rehearsals, and he po'd the rest of the tuba section. His opinion was that the rest of the section was dragging. He literally ruined at least three pieces in our concert, and later, in a conversation with one of the other players, blamed the rest of the section for the problem.

The lady in charge of the group is an incredibly nice person, who does not single out anyone for mistakes or problems. She just makes a general statement that an issue needs to be worked on. Not wanting to cause a "member" issue, my wife begged me to keep my mouth shut and not cause a problem!! So I did. But playing alongside someone who is purposely trying to control the group with their playing is unbelievably frustrating.

I'm not sure what I'll do when we start rehearsals again, but one thing is for sure........ if he does this again....... I will not keep my mouth shut! I'm not going to go through an entire season with that level of frustration.

As has been mentioned previously, there is a fine line between a slight anticipation of the beat, and downright rushing. One keeps the tempo on track and the other ruins everything. There is a time to anticipate, within the confines of the tempo, rhythm, and type of piece you're playing. There is never a time to play in direct opposition of the rest of the group.... whether it be with a conductor or without.
Last edited by paulver on Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Donn »

paulver wrote:One keeps the tempo on track and the other ruins everything.
It might even mean laying back a hair. Buses come with brakes for a reason. I've seen bass drum players take off like that, with the same "you're all dragging" story. The protests came from the off beat section, i.e. horns/trombones etc. They hate that s.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by paulver »

Donn... agreed. I was a percussionist in high school and college, and when I was on bass drum, I could control the group in just about any way I wanted. But, it had to be done with some thought, and a with a definite purpose in mind. I would pick my spots within the music to speed up or slow down, if it need it, and I did it in such a way that the others could easily and clearly pick up on it. The job of the percussion section in a conductorless ensemble is to maintain and/or correct the tempos. Sometime easily done by switching to a rhythm that lends itself to a desired tempo. When the others hear that difference, they just naturally fall into line with it, as they feel it more easily.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by paulver »

Doc.... absolutely right. We're a bunch of older guys who have played for a long time, and there are a few younger guys too. None of us cares who sits in the 1st chair.... except for this one person with an ego. He plays well. His problem is that he wants to let everyone in the section know it..... constantly! There are six of us. Some play better than others, but until this past year, nobody made comments about another's playing ability or anything like that. We always covered the parts.... no matter what they were. In fact, we always had fun playing..... and yes... clowning around at times, but this episode changed everything.

If it was my band, I would have fixed the problem in an instant! But... it isn't, and I surely don't want to cause the director problems, as she's a good friend and colleague, and my wife and daughter are in this band too. I don't want to embarrass them.

I'll figure it out!!!!
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Paul Maybery »

Just a tad or maybe a smidge ahead: Seems like the rhythm aspect and its pros/cons has been covered a bit. Though I have to say, playing with an all top tier all pro band is an exciting, to say the least, when all the players take the responsibility to "drive the band".I will qualify that by saying, that such applies to music in "quick time."

The aspect of playing on the front side of the beat has a tonal benifit to the band as well. But this has to depend on the skill sets of the tubas, particularly with regard to intonation.

In my dream world at least, my belief is that the band should listen down and in so doing fit into the chord, harmonics, overtones or whatever you choose to call it. They should adjust their intonaton from the bass. However, here is the glitch. If the bass enters slightly after the chord is sounded, there is no chance of tuning from the lowest pitch. It was not present when the chord sounded. In this scenario the tuba must enter a hair's breath early. If it does, players who are listening carefully, that is those who know what to listen for, will build the chord in tune. Flattening the third of the chord or nudging the fifth upward are some of the more usual tricks.

As far as tone goes, a very fine sound from the tuba will inspire others to actually listen to you. In this regard you can be responsible for improving the sound of the band.

Granted these little tricks work only when all the players are on the same page and actually want and can make a super-musical contribution. And... all that happens on a great day in a perfect world. There are very few great days and certainly no perfect world. But as I say in most cases, certain skill sets are required for various levels of band playing. If those sets are not present, then perhaps just keep playing as best you can and enjoy the music.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by swillafew »

I played a lot more bass guitar than tuba for a period of years. I was observed by a few people to be "really on top of the beat" or a little ahead maybe. I attributed that to the time on tuba. It is not a conscious plan.

I think the farther you go up the score, the more liberty people enjoy.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by timothy42b »

bloke wrote:Playing AFTER the other musicians is just a bit reminiscent of (analogous to) trying to PLAY a musical and WATCH a musical at the same time. (It rarely turns out very well.)
We have singers in our choir who do not sightread but are very good at following the singers who can.

This is a skill that I do not have and cannot understand.

Sorry for the thread drift but it seems a bit the same - hearing time or pitch in "real time."
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by paulver »

I always taught my students that I (the conductor) was in control of the tempos. If I'm right..... we're all "right " together. If I'm wrong..... we're all "wrong" together. If any one person does differently, it creates catastrophic results!!!
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by Roger Lewis »

Sometimes it depends on the hall and it's acoustics. Gene Pokorny said that, once settling down with the Chicago Symphony, he was amazed at how much he had to anticipate the beat to match the other brass instruments. This was an eye opener for me. Reflected (horns, tuba) sound has father to go to match the speed of direct sound (trumpets and trombones.
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Re: Anticipating the beat

Post by timothy42b »

I recorded this week's rehearsal with a band I'm subbing with. The beat was pretty tight between tubas and trombones. Intonation too, I was pleasantly surprised. (though some individuals might want to check key signatures more often)

I need that feedback, especially when sightreading, to improve my own performance. It's hard to hear everything at once.
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