TubeNet

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "prototype".

pro.to.type \'pro-t-*-.ti-p\ \.pro-t-*-'tip-ik\ n [F, fr. Gk pro-totypon, fr. neut. of pro-totypos archetypal,]fr. pro-t- + typos type 1: an original model on which something is patterned : ARCHETYPE 2: an individual that exhibits the essential features of a later type 3: a standard or typical example - pro.to.typ.ic aj

It's not a brand name, AFAIK, though I wouldn't put it past some clever Asian marketeer.

Some old Besson tubas carried the "prototype" legend on their bells, but other than being very old, they're just like any other Besson of the same age. I don't think that these were prototypes in the true sense of the word.

I assume you're speaking of the prototype Charlie Krause mentioned, the Conn 5xJ with the 19-inch bell. If I had $3000 to spend, and was seriously interested in switching to CC, I'd find a way to get there and try it! But take along a current CC player to test its intonation -- your BBb brain will tend to make you play flat on a CC horn. And you'd better hurry, because at $3000 -- unless it's a D-O-G -- it'll be gone very, very quickly.
_________________________________
Joe Baker, who tried switching to CC in college, but never could get really automatic with the fingerings, probably because he continued to play trombone as much as tuba.

Sometimes prototypes are real stinkers. Sometimes they are better than the production run. For example, the CC Besson I tried in 2001 (I think, may have been 2002) was a great horn and was certainly better than several of the first batch to hit the US. You always hear from tubenetters that you should try out horns before you buy. This is especially true of a prototype. Remember, a prototype is an early attempt at the horn.. They usually make changes to them for a reason. On the other side of the coin, prototypes are more likely to be hand made by a craftsman (as opposed to an assembly line worker.

Chuck(G) wrote:Some old Besson tubas carried the "prototype" legend on their bells, but other than being very old, they're just like any other Besson of the same age. I don't think that these were prototypes in the true sense of the word.

Besson used it to describe their method of production. As in each horn was made like a prototype from the mandrels. They used it for their whole range of brasses, from soprano cornets to bass tubas. They were all other Bessons of the same age.

I own a prototype tuba (not an old Besson either) and would like to address several points that were brought up.

First, a tuba being a prototype doesn't make it inherently good or bad. Many prototypes are fine tubas, as are many production tubas. Many prototype tubas suck, as do many production tubas. The prototype label only denotes that the horn was the forerunner of the production model. In addition, in many cases there are many prototypes of a given model that have been refined to varying degrees that serve as models for the production horn, thus the prototype label doesn't even gurantee that your tubas was the one and only tuba that xxx model of tuba was patterned after.

Second, the comment about prototype horns getting a lot of attention in the manufacturing process is very true. Often times there are many special features that go into prototypes in additon to lots of handywork on the part of expert craftsmen.

Third, they may or may not be finished out (ie lacquered or plated) as many served as works-in-progress with little concern for cosmetics. Don't be turned off by this. Some of the finest horns I've ever played have looked like crap.

Fourth, no...the owner has no responsibility to keep the horn in a given condition or configuration. Once it is individually owned, the owner may do with it as he/she elects. In my case, I bought my prototype to play, not to display as part of a collection, and have made small modifications (all very easily reversable) to it to increase its playability to me.

The most important thing you can do is try it and see if it is a good tuba for you or not with complete disregard for the fact that it is xxx model or a prototype, etc., etc., etc. You've gotten lots of good advice here about what to look for, and I'd advise keeping it in mind if you're doing serious tuba shopping.

tuba4sissies wrote:... is it a good idea to bring my private lessons teacher if possible?

Absolutely, if he plays CC. If not, you might ask him to recommend a CC player you could take with you. Be sure to pay whomever goes with you his usual lesson rate for time he spends helping you, though. Even if that comes to $100 (don't know just how far you'll need to drive) it's a bargain to get the advice of an expert.

This may not apply to your situation -- it would be rude to ask -- so ignore it if it doesn't. For a lot of folks, whipping out the checkbook and writing a check for $3500 just isn't possible. You want to be sure you are sensitive to your parent's financial situation. It may be that you will need to work and save the money yourself, and buy one when you have the dough. As has been discussed, this can be done in a series of step-ups, where you earn a couple thousand and buy a used BBb, then a couple thousand more and trade up to a better horn, then (if need be) a couple thousand more and trade up to an even better one. Perhaps one of those trade-ups will also be a change to CC, perhaps not; we've batted that ball around so many times the cover's worn off. But it IS possible to buy your own tuba. I bought a Miraphone CC during my Freshman year of college, with money I earned myself; many others have also done so. But if Mom & Dad have the dough, and want to give you the horn, that's great; just be sure you show your appreciation by thanking them and taking great care of the horn. 'Nuff said.
_________________________
Joe Baker, who observes that, while this may be a bargain for a 5xJ, there are always good CC instruments available in gently used condition in the same price range.

T4S,
When you go to try out the prototype tuba, spend as much time as you can trying it out. Don't leave the room until you have explored the tuba fully. It would be smart to make a checklist of things to do while you and your CC tuba player are trying out the prototype. Bring the tuba you play on. Play as high as you can and as low as you can, and make note if your range is increased using this horn. Bring a tuner, of course, along with a recorder, metronome, music you have been working on, etc. Bring all of your mouthpices, and possibly try out one or two new ones at the place of purchase. Take notes about the pros and cons of the tuba. Try out other CC Tubas, to see how this one compares to others. If possible, sleep on it, and see what you think the next day. Do not rush into buying this tuba unless it is outstanding.

P.S.
If your parents are unsure about buying you this tuba, and you have decided that this is tuba you want, try the old car/tuba gig. Tell your parents that instead of buying you a car, they should buy you a tuba. A tuba is definitly more useful than a car, and you can manage better in a beat up '67 ford pick-up and a nice CC tuba, than a new car and a beat up '67 BBb Yamaha.

I know this tuba. I don't remember it being a prototype but was a production instrument, though early in the run for sure. It was intended as a demo but went to the clinician instead.

The finish is burnished lacquer and it is the only one I've ever seen. The factory rep told the former clinician that they would never offer this finish again, it required far too much labor.

The instrument plays very well. It was used in a variety of demanding professional venues including session work, regional orchestras, recitals and touring broadway shows.

You have to ask yourself if you like the sound and response of this tuba when you play it. At this price it is a steal but if you don't like the sound or the type of response you just won't like the horn, regardless of price.

THE TUBA wrote:If your parents are unsure about buying you this tuba, and you have decided that this is tuba you want, try the old car/tuba gig. Tell your parents that instead of buying you a car, they should buy you a tuba.

This cracks me up, and probably a lot of the other older people on the list. My parents would no more have bought me a car than sent me to the moon....there were buses, bicycles, and feet for getting places, and no way would I have been allowed a car even if I bought it myself, don't even mention buying one for me!
MA, who thinks times actually have changed, because my parents DID buy me a really nice violin

Old Indian Saying:

Never buy anything that the owner or agent says "Has To Go NOW".

Usually ends up being the wrong choice.

As some of the other posters have said, make sure to check the intonation. I have a prototype PT6 which I bought for a WONDERFUL price (<5000USD) but it has several intonation quirks which took a while to work around effectively.

Also, as best you can make sure that parts are interchangeable with the finalized models. I had an issue with this when I injured some linkage and had to have a part fabricated at the repair shop -- $$.

g'luck

barry guerrero wrote:And isn't CJ Krause, Charlie Krause of Willie Mays fame (or Bays - or whatever that tuba place in Dallas was called)?

Barry

That's Charlie; and it's "Crook Mays" -- I mean "Brook Mays" (my problem is with the company, not Charlie. I don't really know him, but he seems okay to me).

Speaking of bad prototypes...Remember the ill-fated Besson 985 F tuba - a cut-down of a 983 Eb?

983 = great horn with good intonation characteristics
985 = not so much. Some ended up on eBay

yup

Just a word of caution...

Don't get all worked up this tuba just because it is for sale in your area. I'm in the DFW area myself and call tell you that there are lots of tubas coming and going around here all the time. Make sure you try all the tubas you can before you settle on one. I don't think flying through this process at Mach 3 just because other people are interested in the tuba and could buy it out from under you is a good idea...take your time and really explore your options.

Get to TMEA (ie, All State Convention) or one of the retailers for a day or two and try horns to your heart's content. I'd highly, highly, highly recommend TMEA to someone like yourself that really seems to have little tuba experience outside of the school realm. It's in the middle of February every year and there are lots and lots and lots of tubas there to try...Hirsbrunner to Yamaha to Conn to Willson to Gronitz to Meinl Weston to Jupiter. If you can wait that long, I think you'd be well served by making the trip...it'd give you longer to save your money too!

That said, trying the Conn isn't going to hurt anything...and heck, if you fall in love with it, buy it...but I know that I wouldn't be satisfied unless I knew I had explored all of my options.

In defense of Charlie (like he really needs me to defend him ) he is NOT a high pressure guy. When you get a little older and actually have to go out and buy things for yourself you will encounter high pressure salespeople - he is not one. However, if the owner is really willing to let the horn go so cheap, the owner must really need the money right now. So, Charlie is just trying to satisfy the owner and make sure the horn sells soon, not several months from now - he is doing his job.

FWIW, If Charlie seems a little short with you, it may be due to your dubious reputation online. Although only human, he is normally very personable to deal with. Think about it: If you offend hundreds of people in a close-knit community on a daily basis, don't expect one of them to all of a sudden bend over backwards for you the first time their phone rings and you are on the other end of the line.

P.S. If you were ever buying a horn I was selling I would probably add a "nuisance" surcharge.

tuba4sissies wrote:Lol. I'm saying though, at first he was kind of pushy. He's a good guy, I just felt rushed.

You are rushing yourself, and that's obvious from reviewing this thread. There's a big difference between rushing and moving quickly. When I bought my Holton, I learned of its existence on a Wednesday and I wrote the check on Friday. That's moving quickly. But I had spent a lot of time play-testing similar large tubas and talking about it with better players, and so had done my homework on what sort of instrument I was looking for. That's how you avoid rushing.

In my opinion, you should stop asking for advice and start taking it. There's no way in the world you should be making this decision without a teacher's guidance. Have you had that lesson with Ed Jones yet? Has he play-tested the instrument?

And, finally, I offer this advice to you and to all others on Tubenet: Do not conduct your transactions in public, especially not in real time. You make yourself vulnerable to 1.) offending the seller, 2.) alerting a competitor of the availability of the tuba, 3.) taking away your options to back out without doing so publicly, and 4.) wasting your time with advice about an instrument nobody else has played, for use by a person nobody else has heard.

Rick "who knows buck fever when he sees it" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: You are rushing yourself, and that's obvious from reviewing this thread.

Too late...he already bought it from what I can tell from his other posts...

Tom wrote:Too late...he already bought it from what I can tell from his other posts...

That's what I get for not checking in much during last week's intense business travel. And I'm just skimming topics today--to behind to read everything.

Rick "thinking the advice may suit the next guy" Denney