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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Postby royjohn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:15 am

ren wrote:
i'm letting the sound be my guide.


Ah, Wind and Song...being against that is kind of like being against Motherhood and Apple Pie...I'm not against W & S, but, like everything else, I think it has its limits. In my case I developed (or didn't develop) my embouchure on trumpet and after my comeback around 15 years ago @ age 56, I certainly tried W & S, along with a lot of other things, none of which did much good. It was three extended embouchure consults with Dave Wilken that did the trick. For me it was a placement and "embouchure track" issue as I have written above. I think sometimes technique boils down to actual physical details, sometimes excruciatingly detailed details. However, that's just my experience. If W & S gets you there, that is great, too. I think sometimes when it seems to work, we've actually stumbled onto some physical changes without knowing it.

Humans are complex animals. I read Dave Pelz's book on putting. He has experimental proof that some putters have a faulty stroke which opens or closes the putter blade, but they unconsciously learn to compensate for that so that the putt goes straight. Amazing! So I don't see why W & S couldn't lead to changes in your embouchure that you aren't even aware of. I just don't think it is the easiest or most efficient way to handle such a problem. Just sayin' :? :? :?
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Postby ren » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:25 am

actually and thanks for that i'm not wind and songing it. but having played with different techniques over the years and the fact that i have no pressure on myself to perform at a certain level besides my own desires i'm letting change happen and the final result is the most important thing. sound is just something to pay attention to as things change due to what is an inevitable embouchure change due to a radical change in tongue position which is intentional in all aspects.
in fact we're if not for wind and song i would have probably been here in my teen years but many teachers refused to be specific about the tongue during the w & s rage.

my face reformed itself based on that and i'm just monitoring where it's headed since it has been changing in fits and starts almost daily. i can't thank jake enough for the help he gave me however neither am i a true believer. but i'm also not a believer at all in self managed embouchure theory.

trying to force an embouchure change is a fruitless endevour in most cases. this one is happening more or less on its own. and that's good because although i know next to nothing about the physical formation of embouchure while i play. i do know something about building heuristics since i spent a ton of time doing it.
Last edited by ren on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Postby bloke » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:25 am

There are some disciplines about which we - as individuals - are more intuitive, and there are others where we (floundering somewhat) probably need to observe or consult with others who are more intuitive in a particular discipline.

I'm not particularly intuitive regarding "playing the tuba", but since there's only a limited number of things to try – as far as ways to do it – I believe I eventually stumbled across ways that work, based on sonic models from recordings. "Having someone who really knows what they're talking about show you how", obviously, is a great shortcut, but I still believe that without a sonic model or concept, the mechanics alone aren't going to quite get us there.
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Postby royjohn » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:42 am

bloke wrote:
I still believe that without a sonic model or concept, the mechanics alone aren't going to quite get us there.


Not saying that this referred to what I said, not saying it didn't, but I would say that it would, of course, be crazy to stop listening to what comes out of your horn. However, there are many who emphasize how it feels rather than how it sounds to you under the bell. I believe it's bloke himself who often mentions that the sound under the bell can be deceiving.

I'm also not saying that one should do an entirely "self-guided embouchure change." I advocated getting some embouchure consults for an embouchure problem, which makes sense to me.

Interested to see from his comments that ren and I are not that far apart. It's an interesting topic. :D :D :D
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Postby ren » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:55 am

yeah it's a delicate irony actually. i had a very well known player try and make this embouchure change using a mirror and pictures before i went to college. it simply didn't take. who knew changing tongue position or even where my tongue was would effect the exact embouchure change. it would have saved a lot of time. like 35 years! that's how patient i am. or maybe i'm just a mental patient.
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