Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

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TheTuba
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by TheTuba »

ren wrote:When I was a full timer, and now as a new timer, I always enjoy(ed) pushing the low range to the extremes.

As I re-engage, I have been reminded of a certain tick in that approach, which is that there seems to be a need for balance in this. I have found that spending alot of time in the extreme low range (low G down to pedal eflat below pedal C) seems to "recenter" the embouchure for me, and then it feels akward to move back up into the mid range, where my chops feel stiff like I have too much lower lip in the mouthpiece (or something). Phrasing and air flow also tends to suffer when returning to the mid range. To be specific my chops actually feel like concrete after this.

Is this something others experience or is my embouchure just crappy? I feel like if I spend too much time down there things dont necessarily get better (overall). I dont practice the high range because I have one.
Also I havent rebuilt any stamina yet so could be part of it.
I can reach the low F, but I do it doing the brass gym smooth air movement and beautiful sounds, then I work my way back up.If your just going from pedal eb to your mid range, that is a reason. If you push to hard, and do not work your way back up, that's probably why yours sound crappy after that.
I don't *practice* high range, I play excerpts and etudes in it. Practicing high range should be a wary thing, as you often do not know when you start building muscle and when you start hurting yourself trying to build it
I would put a good signature here, but i dont have one, so this will make do.
royjohn
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by royjohn »

I'm certainly no expert, but I would agree with Bloke that practice strengthens the thing practiced. If you "camp out" in the low range without practicing entering and leaving it on the way to the mid range and high range via scales and jumps, you may find you are able to play nicely in the low range, but don't know how to get in and out of it.

My guess about this would be that the setting for the low range is different from the "regular" embouchure and it is hard to get from one embouchure to the other. The Reinhardt concept of the embouchure track is applicable here. Myself, I don't yet practice that much really low, but I do try to extend my high range and I struggle to get the embouchure track right to get those notes over second ledger line G. My embouchure goes up and slightly to the left as I ascend, but getting the exact spot for each note right and the balance of upper and lower lip weight is still tricky for me.

If you find that you fiddle around to find the "right" low register setting and then can play there, but can't manage in the middle register after, your low register setting isn't quite right or you haven't mastered switching in and out of it. Tomorrow when I practice I'll have to try to notice how I go down and to the right to descend and whether it is a smooth transition.

Rich Wiley has a great book of Reinhardt Routines that might help, but it would probably also help to get "typed" and take a few lessons from someone familiar with the embouchure track concept first. I really wish that Doug Elliott would chime in here, as he probably knows more about this than just about anybody. I hope I haven't stated it wrong.
HTH, royjohn
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pwhitaker
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by pwhitaker »

For me playing a variety of 3 and 4 octave scales and arpeggios seems to keep me flexible enough in my dotage for the playing I do in public.
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Shostytuben
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by Shostytuben »

Ren I don’t think it’s unhealthy. It’s a matter of approach and what goals you are setting down there. I really liked how bloke put it. If you want that even low playing like Chester or Ellis Wean, and Dave Kirk the Phil teele low register drills helped me with that more then anything. You can buy his book from horn guys. Worth the investment.
timothy42b
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by timothy42b »

royjohn wrote: If you find that you fiddle around to find the "right" low register setting and then can play there, but can't manage in the middle register after, your low register setting isn't quite right or you haven't mastered switching in and out of it. HTH, royjohn
I think that it is easier to play the low register less than correctly, because, well, it is easier, more forgiving. So extended play in the low register might be detrimental to higher playing, if your low register setting isn't quite right. This is certainly true on trombone, I'm not sure if it is as true on tube, but it makes sense to me.
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by MikeMason »

I guess I’m late to the game, but I’m finding the Snedecor book very useful on getting in and out of the low register and just developing that register as useful and musical in context. Concerning tuba solos, a great quote comes to mind “ brevity is the soul of wit”. I think the first movement of the Gregson is about all a general audience would want to hear at a band concert.
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by Levaix »

So just to chime in and completely contradict what everyone else is saying... Practicing low range helps my high range. It relaxes a lot of the unconscious tension and squeezing that comes along with high notes, and it becomes easier.

That being said... I am a euphonium player. My low range is your mid range, and my high range is your stratosphere. Plus, we euphonium players are just weird. :lol:
Shostytuben
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by Shostytuben »

Why don’t you try some Caruso drills. Checkout Julie landsman approach to the method on YouTube. It might yield you some good results. Another approach is getting a lip control ring and focus on your setup in a mirror. Floyd Cooley has a nice approach with using these things. Contact him.
timothy42b
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by timothy42b »

ren wrote:nevertheless i embarked on the journey with no real expectations where things would land so i might as well work forward and not worry about living in the past. the road to efficiency is not always predictable or straight.
It might be time to get a checkup from an embouchure specialist. We have one right here on the forum with a very good reputation for sorting out exactly this kind of thing.
royjohn
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by royjohn »

ren wrote:
i'm letting the sound be my guide.
Ah, Wind and Song...being against that is kind of like being against Motherhood and Apple Pie...I'm not against W & S, but, like everything else, I think it has its limits. In my case I developed (or didn't develop) my embouchure on trumpet and after my comeback around 15 years ago @ age 56, I certainly tried W & S, along with a lot of other things, none of which did much good. It was three extended embouchure consults with Dave Wilken that did the trick. For me it was a placement and "embouchure track" issue as I have written above. I think sometimes technique boils down to actual physical details, sometimes excruciatingly detailed details. However, that's just my experience. If W & S gets you there, that is great, too. I think sometimes when it seems to work, we've actually stumbled onto some physical changes without knowing it.

Humans are complex animals. I read Dave Pelz's book on putting. He has experimental proof that some putters have a faulty stroke which opens or closes the putter blade, but they unconsciously learn to compensate for that so that the putt goes straight. Amazing! So I don't see why W & S couldn't lead to changes in your embouchure that you aren't even aware of. I just don't think it is the easiest or most efficient way to handle such a problem. Just sayin' :? :? :?
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Re: Can too much "low playing" be unhealthy?

Post by royjohn »

bloke wrote:
I still believe that without a sonic model or concept, the mechanics alone aren't going to quite get us there.
Not saying that this referred to what I said, not saying it didn't, but I would say that it would, of course, be crazy to stop listening to what comes out of your horn. However, there are many who emphasize how it feels rather than how it sounds to you under the bell. I believe it's bloke himself who often mentions that the sound under the bell can be deceiving.

I'm also not saying that one should do an entirely "self-guided embouchure change." I advocated getting some embouchure consults for an embouchure problem, which makes sense to me.

Interested to see from his comments that ren and I are not that far apart. It's an interesting topic. :D :D :D
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