Doc's Weltklang Kaisertuba Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk
Forum rules
Reminder: "Go fund me" requests are not allowed and should be reported. All requests will be deleted.

Doc's Weltklang Kaisertuba

Postby cktuba » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:56 pm

Doc wrote:Me and my large new-to-me (but very old) addition to the family...

IMG_8968_4_11.jpg


Cerveny 601 BBb?
Image
User avatar
cktuba
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:17 am
Location: A department store freeing a man trapped inside what I believe to be a "Martin Mammoth."

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:21 pm

cktuba wrote:
Doc wrote:Me and my large new-to-me (but very old) addition to the family...

The attachment IMG_8968_4_11.jpg is no longer available


Cerveny 601 BBb?


Weltklang (B&S) Kaisertuba. Made an offer on German ebay. Obviously, it's not a $19000 Meinl Weston or Miraphone, but for the inexpensive price (and interesting history), it plays well, and everything works as it should. Big sound and surprising presence with such little bell flare. Intonation is better than I expected. Very manageable, but the suggestion of a 2nd valve kicker is one that would make a couple of notes bang-on. I doubt I'll put this tuba in situations that will bring the kind of musical scrutiny that I can't overcome as it is (low B and pedal E require big 4th slide pull). Intonation is otherwise good enough I won't have to kill my worn out left shoulder with slide pulling. And it has a usable false tone pedal B.

I don't know that it's particularly mouthpiece sensitive, but it does respond differently with different mp's. I will be searching for the right one. Seems to respond well to larger mp's so far. Stofer Geib has that bowl cup sparkle, but it is too shallow, and low range doesn't open up. Sidey Stainless Helleberg really opens up the low range, and intonation improves slightly, but it lacks that special vibrancy that bowls produce in the old German horns. Laskey 30Ge is what I have that sounds pretty good and has a decent low range response, although I don't believe it will be the final choice. If anyone has any mp's I can try (RT/PT 88, TU 43, TU 42, Tilz WHB2, Sellmansberger Symphony, etc.), I'd drive a bit to trial them or possibly pay shipping both ways.

Many thanks to Bob Tucci for his unsolicited assistance. I initially contacted him for his wisdom and expertise with mouthpieces as it relates to old German and Czech instruments. We've had extensive communication about many things besides mouthpieces (what a genuinely and supremely kind and generous man). He asked for some photos of the tuba so he could send them to Hartmut Geilert (legendary B&S maker). Geilert explained that the tuba is Czech-made (Graslitz). Bob said date of manufacture is almost impossible to determine, but is most likely post-WWII. The engraving "Klein Koblenz" on the bell refers to a music store that supplied stenciled tubas, including kaisertubas, to the German Luftwaffe and Wermacht during WWII, however, they also sold similarly stenciled tubas to the public for a short time after the war. I am still investigating a couple of leads, but it's safe to say she's been around a LONG time.

I haven't weighed the tuba, but unlike me, she's a bit lighter than she looks. For reference, I'm 6' 01" and 3XX lbs.

Next to the 181:
IMG_8955_1_11.jpg
IMG_8955_1_11.jpg (71.85 KiB) Viewed 1138 times
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby bort » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:21 pm

Doc, how tall is that tuba? It looks huge!

Also, I think the tuba is playing and responding well, because you have chosen a mug of beer as lubricant for the valves. Clearly, you know how to give that tuba what it needs. :)

(And a big +1 for Bob Tucci!)
B&S 4198 (PT-7P)
User avatar
bort
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 9383
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:28 pm

bort wrote:Doc, how tall is that tuba? It looks huge!

Also, I think the tuba is playing and responding well, because you have chosen a mug of beer as lubricant for the valves. Clearly, you know how to give that tuba what it needs. :)

(And a big +1 for Bob Tucci!)


I'll measure it for sure, but I am guessing 110cm/43".
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby bloke » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:15 pm

8)
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 41012
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby bloke » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:49 pm

At least - per the sticker on your home's door's window - your house seems to be officially protected from you. :shock:
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 41012
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby YORK-aholic » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:42 pm

Doc wrote: Big sound and surprising presence with such little bell flare.



Who needs bell flare when you've got a throat like that!

(The tuba bell's throat, not yours 8) )

NIce horn :tuba:
Some old Yorks and Martins
User avatar
YORK-aholic
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 926
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Running Springs, CA

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:01 pm

bort wrote:Doc, how tall is that tuba? It looks huge!

Also, I think the tuba is playing and responding well, because you have chosen a mug of beer as lubricant for the valves. Clearly, you know how to give that tuba what it needs. :)

(And a big +1 for Bob Tucci!)


My official height measurement for submission to the TNFJ - 44 1/8”

YORK-aholic wrote:
Doc wrote: Big sound and surprising presence with such little bell flare.


Who needs bell flare when you've got a throat like that!


Hartmut Geilert said that the bottom bow is an indication of Czech production- too small to be German-made. :shock:

If I ever have cause (or the $$$$$), I would have a 197, 497, Fafner, maybe a Fasolt, or a pre-war B&F. But this tuba is fun to play. It’s making its debut on July 4th with a German brass band I work with. Mist of the day will be playing upper parts on F tuba, but I’ll air her out on all the American marches and a few of the German ones.
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby TheBerlinerTuba » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:56 am

Hello Doc,

congrats on your new Kaiser BBb tuba! If you don't mind, could you post a few close up photos of your tuba? Especially the bracing and the valves.

Would there happen to be a serial number on the receiver or somewhere on the bell?

I suspect there is a misunderstanding about the history of this tuba and I have asked my colleague who worked at B&S from the 1960s to 1980s in the tuba making department and in fact he most likely built most of your tuba. So you are getting it directly from the horse's mouth.

These Weltklang/B&S Kaisers were made between the 1960s until the early to mid 1980s. In total the production was around 70 instruments. The entire tuba was made in house in Klingenthal, nothing in Czechoslovakia.

He is very happy the tuba has gone to a good home and will be used as it should. Your thumb ring seems to not be original and perhaps that might be why Geilert thinks the tuba was Czech made.

The instrument dealer Klein in Koblenz still exists and they would often order B&S tubas and sell them under their house name, similar to the chinese companies and their various dealers these days. At B&S in the DDR/GDR times, they would engrave whatever name you wanted on the bell.

Oddly enough by chance I have an identical tuba sitting next to me...


Image.jpeg
Weltklang Kaiser Modell 104 ca. 1982
Image.jpeg (79.74 KiB) Viewed 1464 times


Doc wrote:Me and my large new-to-me (but very old) addition to the family...

The attachment IMG_8968_4_11.jpg is no longer available
TheBerlinerTuba
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:45 pm

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:36 am

TheBerlinerTuba wrote:Hello Doc,

congrats on your new Kaiser BBb tuba! If you don't mind, could you post a few close up photos of your tuba? Especially the bracing and the valves.

Would there happen to be a serial number on the receiver or somewhere on the bell?

I suspect there is a misunderstanding about the history of this tuba and I have asked my colleague who worked at B&S from the 1960s to 1980s in the tuba making department and in fact he most likely built most of your tuba. So you are getting it directly from the horse's mouth.

These Weltklang/B&S Kaisers were made between the 1960s until the early to mid 1980s. In total the production was around 70 instruments. The entire tuba was made in house in Klingenthal, nothing in Czechoslovakia.

He is very happy the tuba has gone to a good home and will be used as it should. Your thumb ring seems to not be original and perhaps that might be why Geilert thinks the tuba was Czech made.

The instrument dealer Klein in Koblenz still exists and they would often order B&S tubas and sell them under their house name, similar to the chinese companies and their various dealers these days. At B&S in the DDR/GDR times, they would engrave whatever name you wanted on the bell.

Oddly enough by chance I have an identical tuba sitting next to me...


Image.jpeg


Doc wrote:Me and my large new-to-me (but very old) addition to the family...

IMG_8968_4_11.jpg


Your information matches the info I was originally given by the seller. In any case, I’d like to find out as much as possible about the instrument. Thank you for your help! Herr Geilert believed that rhe valves were the indicator of Czech manufacture.

I cannot find a serial number anywhere on the tuba. Anything else I should look for?

How do you like yours? What mouthpiece have you found is a good match for this tuba. I’m beginning to search for one that might be the best.

Thank you for any information you can provide!
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:44 pm

bort wrote:Doc, how tall is that tuba? It looks huge!

Also, I think the tuba is playing and responding well, because you have chosen a mug of beer as lubricant for the valves. Clearly, you know how to give that tuba what it needs. :)

(And a big +1 for Bob Tucci!)


Sorry. Height is 44.5”
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby TheBerlinerTuba » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:10 am

Hello Doc,

Here's a list of mouthpieces that work well with most German kaiser tubas.

http://www.whf-mouthpieces.at/
most of Windhagers big BBb pieces are great

https://www.mundstueckbau-tilz.de/
Tilz Hilgers B1 or B2 which i used for many years

https://www.schmidt-brass.de/englisch/index.htm
If you got the dough, the WH-B2 is one of my favorites and is my current piece.

Robert Tucci RT-88 is great as well

I know colleagues like Daniel Ridder who have their own custom pieces from J. Klier that sound fantastic but I dont have much experience with them.

Regarding the serial number, if its not on the bell or the receiver then is long gone;)

The one in my shop right now is here on consignment. I also have one I am restoring at the moment for myself. They are good horns, but they tend to vary a bit. They are extremely sensitive to setup but once dialed in, will keep up with any modern BBb.
TheBerlinerTuba
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:45 pm

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby MikeMason » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:51 am

So, what do these sell for, ballpark?
Pensacola Symphony
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Wisemann 900c with original heavyweight bayamo
Yamaha yfb621 with original heavyweight manatuska
MikeMason
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:03 am
Location: montgomery/gulf shores, Alabama

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:49 pm

MikeMason wrote:So, what do these sell for, ballpark?


Thomann has them for $132 plus $34 shipping.
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby MikeMason » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:08 pm

I meant the older kaiser b flats :oops:
Pensacola Symphony
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Wisemann 900c with original heavyweight bayamo
Yamaha yfb621 with original heavyweight manatuska
MikeMason
5 valves
5 valves
 
Posts: 1953
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:03 am
Location: montgomery/gulf shores, Alabama

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:05 pm

MikeMason wrote:I meant the older kaiser b flats :oops:


Sorry, Mike. :oops:

The ones I’ve seen were €1800-3500. I don’t know how much a really nice pre-WWII Bohland & Fuchs would be (rare as best I can tell), but I’d guess they would be considerably more expensive. I’ve seen the Cerveny and Amati copies of the B&F in the €2000-4000 range. My experience is certainly limited. BerlinerTuba could likely offer much more info.
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:53 pm

TheBerlinerTuba wrote:Hello Doc,

congrats on your new Kaiser BBb tuba! If you don't mind, could you post a few close up photos of your tuba? Especially the bracing and the valves.


Here is a link to some photos. I can take more tomorrow in better light if necessary.

Weltklang Kaisertuba en B
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby oedipoes » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:10 pm

Doc wrote:
Sorry, Mike. :oops:

The ones I’ve seen were €1800-3500. I don’t know how much a really nice pre-WWII Bohland & Fuchs would be (rare as best I can tell), but I’d guess they would be considerably more expensive. I’ve seen the Cerveny and Amati copies of the B&F in the €2000-4000 range. My experience is certainly limited. BerlinerTuba could likely offer much more info.


Mine was 300eur off ebay about 10 years ago...it's pre WWI apparently.
It resides in Berlin currently for restoration by theBerlinerTuba :tuba:
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Me & My Tuba, Add You & Yours

Postby Doc » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:44 pm

oedipoes wrote:
Mine was 300eur off ebay about 10 years ago...it's pre WWI apparently.
It resides in Berlin currently for restoration by theBerlinerTuba :tuba:


I need one.
All that, plus $8.00, will get you a venti at Starbucks.
Or in my case, a large can of Folgers.
User avatar
Doc
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 6503
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:09 am
Location: South Texas

Re: Doc's Weltklang Kaisertuba

Postby TheBerlinerTuba » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:42 am

Hello Doc,
Thank you for posting detailed photos. I've finally had a look through and I have to change what I said earlier.
The design of the valve block is such, that it's highly likely your tuba was made sometime in the 1930s. This means your tuba is not a Weltklang or B&S rather something much older although it looks very similar.
If possible, I would like to see a picture of the valve bearing plate under the valve cap?
TheBerlinerTuba
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:45 pm

Next

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], timayer, WessCollette and 27 guests