MAW Valves

[Peach]

I keep reading bits and bobs here about MAW valves that mostly say really good things.

But I also see a fairly regular supply of them for sale. So, either here or in a PM, could owners and former owners care to say what they liked and didn't like about them (plus maybe which horn was used) for the benefit of myself(!) and others...?

Would be interested to know if there is a predictable set of results with them...

Thanks!
MP

[bort]

Two guesses:

People who have owned and used them for a while then go back and stick in the regular valves and think they are fine, or at least, they'd rather recoup $950 cash and be okay with the original valves.

It makes more of a difference on some tubas than others. Sometimes a little extra resistance (original valves) is a good thing for the tuba.

What tuba are you using now, Peach?

[jtuba]

I had MAW valves in two tubas and have since traded one, so I only need one set. For me it’s always been the same results in the tuba, smoother slurs, quicker response, easier low register. Big difference on my 3450, more subtle on the 195P I had access to.

[Peach]

Two guesses:

People who have owned and used them for a while then go back and stick in the regular valves and think they are fine, or at least, they'd rather recoup $950 cash and be okay with the original valves.

It makes more of a difference on some tubas than others. Sometimes a little extra resistance (original valves) is a good thing for the tuba.

What tuba are you using now, Peach?

Hey Bort,
I'm sure your assessment is spot on.
Hoping there are some definite changes that can easily be A-B'd by owners of MAW's.

My current contrabass is a very nice Miraphone 1291-5 Bb.
If anyone happens to have any MAW experience with 1291's - Bb or C I'd be very happy to hear opinions - just out of interest...

[Peach]

I had MAW valves in two tubas and have since traded one, so I only need one set. For me it’s always been the same results in the tuba, smoother slurs, quicker response, easier low register. Big difference on my 3450, more subtle on the 195P I had access to.

Sounds like a pretty big win getting those benefits. No drawbacks to the MAW's?
Also, 195P - mmm mm mmm.

[Antontuba]

I’d try a set in my Besson 981, if they were available.

[joh_tuba]

I’d try a set in my Besson 981, if they were available.

It's my understanding that Wilke won't make MAW valves for compensating horns.

If you look at the ports through a compensating valve it's pretty obvious why. You wouldn't have enough metal left over to keep the valve structurally safe for use.

[Peach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3EgqnOCqZ8" target="_blank"

MAW valve review - Joshua Cutchin, tuba

[J.c. Sherman]

There are as many opinions on MAW valves as there are set of MAW that have been manufactured

[Peach]

There are as many opinions on MAW valves as there are set of MAW that have been manufactured

Maybe, which is why it seems a decent plan to gather some of them together to see if how much agreement there is, if any.

[bort]

At the risk of sounding like a trumpet player...

Has anyone experimented with using less tg an all 4 MAW valves at once? Like only valves 3 and 4?

[Tom]

Small tubas with not-already-too-large bore sizes seem to benefit. But small tubas with huge bores just get more of the same: too little resistance where you need it. It may feel good, but decreasing resistance in the open bugle of an already-too-open tuba seems to reduce resonance as it masks other issues. So these work if the horn has a properly thought out bore size and not one that uses off-the-shelf parts to save money. (Thanks, Gerhard.)

I know a fellow who bought a set of MAW valves for his 45SLP who hated them. I wonder why? (heh, heh, heh...)

Bingo.

I am of the opinion that many underestimate the benefits of resistance.

Interestingly enough, I have a set of MAW valves in my 45-SLP and think they're great. In fact I feel that the MAW valves on that model of tuba are a much better match than when I've tried them on larger (CC) tubas. The change for me is noticeable and positive, but subtle. I liked the horn very much already, and like it just the same with the MAW valves. Most notable change is easier low register (this is an F tuba, after all) playing and improved "feel" to the blow (just like you said).They certainly did no harm as far as I can tell. I know the 45-SLP is not a model that everyone likes (doesn't hurt my feelings! ) - many feel it's already too open and/or lacking resonance. I might be really dumb, but I like mine.

I have, however, discussed MAW valves on the 45-SLP that another player bought and hated - perhaps the same person you're referring to. He greatly preferred the "blow" and resonance with the original set. I have spoken with yet another player that has been experimenting with using only a partial set of MAW valves, vs. using all four of them. Initial reports of mixing and matching seem to have achieved the results that player was looking for.

I also believe that many are expecting to find a night/day difference between their stock valves and the MAW valves. While some certainly do believe that has occurred, I believe the difference is much more subtle than that but I've only actually owned this one set and used them on a 45-SLP, so my long term experience is limited. Perhaps those that sell them didn't notice the change or didn't think it was a big enough change? Or, well...maybe they just didn't like them.

There are variations available in MAW valves, too. For instance Martin does offer a "straight bore" 4th valve vs. his "standard" slightly graduated bore set. Martin offers them in different sizes for different tubas, too, not only for the big valve B&S/MW instruments. Call him for details - he can obviously share information with you about almost anything you'd want to know about the MAW valves.

[cambrook]

I have a set in a 6450/2 and they work well.

I tried a set in my 45SLP and it certainly does change things, but for me it lost the character of the sound. It didn't sound bad, but it just sounded like other piston F tubas instead of a SLP. I decided to keep a 4th MAW only - the sound is the same as the original but with the slightly improved low C/B/Bb

[bort]

So let's say you get a set of 4 MAW valves... anything you can do to improve air flow with the 5th rotor? I liked the results of the adapted Rotax rotor from Martin... but not sure what, if anything remains to be done with normal rotors.

[Ken Crawford]

So let's say you get a set of 4 MAW valves... anything you can do to improve air flow with the 5th rotor? I liked the results of the adapted Rotax rotor from Martin... but not sure what, if anything remains to be done with normal rotors.

A 5th rotor on a 4 piston horn is already dent free and larger in bore size. The MAW valves bring the pistons to a state closer to that of the 5th rotor which in theory should make the horn play/feel more consistent. So after installing MAW valves, to make the 5th more free blowing would just re-alienate the situation. In theory.

[Ken Crawford]

I suppose that I have misinterpalated Martin's description where he draws a relationship between rotors and MAW valves.

"What would happen if you combined the best aspects of both pistons and rotors in one valve?

Pistons have a direct stroke and a great feel in the hand. There is no change of motion in any type of linkage system, and maintenance is quite simple.
Rotors have extremely uniform windways inside. They are great for all types of music, including legato passages, and valved notes tend to play as well as open tones.
Building upon these great characteristics, the MAW Valve goes one step further. Many prior pistons, compromised by manufacturing irregularities (bumps) in the windways, are inherently distortive. Bumps alter sound waves. To avoid this, the MAW Valve opens the middle windway to create a smooth rotor-like passage. Both of the windways above and below this middle passage are now smooth and round inside the MAW Valve.

The geometry of the patented MAW Valve advances the playing characteristics of a horn. With the MAW Valve, sound waves traveling through the instrument are less disrupted. Playing is easier. There is a fuller sound with less effort. Notes tend to be more stable with increased clarity. The MAW valve combines the best qualities of pistons and rotors."

[pete edwards]

some thoughts on MAW & rotary valves:

It seems that compensating horns would stand to benefit the most from this design. I'm not entirely familiar with the design of compensating piston valves but it seems to me that they are the same as normal pistons lust longer & "doubled", like 2 pistons stacked on top of each other. There shouldn't be any inherent structural issues in a double valve that aren't in a single. After all, the forces acting on a piston valve are very minimal in normal use, ounces at best. At the very least, maybe a hybrid design would work for compensators.

On rotary valves: Mr Wilk included a few rotary valve port designs in his patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US8227677" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) using similar concepts to his pistons.

"Scooping" valves can be very effective in improving the response of a horn. I've done it several times on my own trombones' valves, using a "lollipop" cutter (undercutting ball mill) on a 3 axis CNC mill. I would never try it by hand, way too much precision required.

At the same time aas scooping the valves, I have done a trick to alleviate the "D" passage problem bloke described above. Through the middle of the passage (not at the entry/exit) I have widened the bore laterally like this:

Untitled.png

so that the cross sectional area of the bore through the "D" section is the same as the cross sectional area of the round bore. Yes it is not round, but it has the same flow rate as the round tube and does make an acoustic difference for the better. If there isn't enough room laterally to cut the shape you need, it should easy enough to add metal in that area by silver soldering plates on the sides of the valve before machining. Don't try this at home kids.

Lastly, check out BP Leonard's rotary valve https://patents.google.com/patent/US590 ... e+trombone" target="_blank" target="_blank
i really wish someone would make this, I think it would be fantastic. The patent is expired.

[pete edwards]

Another thought on the cost of MAW valves:
It seems with the advancement in 3D printed metals (https://www.shapeways.com/materials/steel" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) Piston valves could be made much more cheaply by printing them as opposed to traditional methods.
You could even incorporate features (venting, weight reduction, oil ports, etc) that would be impossible using traditional methods. Complexity doesn't add cost with 3D printing, mass does (as it increases build time)
I have had rough piston valve designs quoted by Shapeways in stainless for under $100. All that would be required post printing would be turning the OD to the correct size/ surface finish on a lathe. A few minutes of machine time.

[mjrctuba]

I bought MAW valves for my MW 2145. I've had the horn 17 years. I've been playing it with the valves for just over a month.

I noticed immediately that it opened up the horn to play more freely and clearly. They solved some low end stuffiness. I'm not as sure about slurs, etc. that I've read other people suggest.

In my case, I'm never getting rid of this horn. So, I saw the MAW valves as a permanent upgrade. If I weren't attached to my 2145 for sentimental reasons, I don't know if I'd make the investment. Basically, if you aren't keeping the horn long term, it might make more sense just to trade it in for another model.

That being said, I am happy with my MAW valves.

Good luck!

[bort]

Thanks for all the replies about the rotors. Once the new tuba arrives, I'll figure out what I want to do to mess around with it.

Maybe I should drop in a Rotax...?