5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

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5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Hello TubeNet, I'm looking for some community input on my hunt for a CC tuba. I'm making the transition from being an exclusively BBb player to being a CC player and I want something that can handle more air than my VMI 3301. I've tried (and thoroughly enjoyed) the following CC tubas so far:

Miraphone 1293
B&S PT-6
B&S MrP
Wessex Chicago York
Meinl Weston Thor

I loved every one of them and each of them brought something unique to the table. The Miraphone was the most free-blowing horn I have ever tried. The PT-6 had brilliant projection and tone. The MrP had magnificent response. The Wessex Chicago York had monster tone and slotted very well in all registers. The Thor also had monster sound and, on the model I tried, had exceptional intonation. Overall, I would be happy with any of the above mentioned horns but I am leaning towards the Wessex simply due to the fact that I can actually acquire one and my experience dealing with Steve Marcus was really positive. Right now my budget is ~10K so I'd be looking to buy either a used Euro-make horn or a new Chinese horn. I have yet to try the Eastman 836 to compare to the Wessex Chicago York but I do plan on making the trip up to Michigan to try the Chicago Presence as well. The Kanstul Grand CC also peaked my interest as it is a US made horn in my price range with heavy influence from Mr. Robert Carpenter in its design. Does anyone have any input on my situation or advice on where to look to get a horn of this size in this price range? Thanks in advance for the input.

Andrew
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by SousaWarrior9 »

bloke wrote:... - if someone actually has the time to follow you around and listen - take along someone with good taste/good ears with no axe to grind.
I volunteer. Tuba roadtrip?
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Ken Crawford »

bloke wrote:You need to make your own decision
This violates the spirit of Tubenet.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Bloke, I really appreciate your input. I'm not one to be sold on things quickly, but rather, I need to evaluate from experience. A point that I'd also like to make is that I flat out refuse to try a floor model horn and then place an order for another of the same model. I need to play the one I'll own before pulling the trigger. This is how I bought all my previous guitars, basses, and my current tuba. I guess I'm looking for input from the TN community on additional directions to look, as I'd like to play the field as much as possible.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

SousaWarrior9 wrote:
bloke wrote:... - if someone actually has the time to follow you around and listen - take along someone with good taste/good ears with no axe to grind.
I volunteer. Tuba roadtrip?
This is simply a matter of when, my friend.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by itai »

Awegner2 wrote: Miraphone 1293
B&S PT-6
B&S MrP
Wessex Chicago York
Meinl Weston Thor
I like all the tubas you listed.

Bloke, I’m curious to which modern large CC tuba offers “curious intonation“? IMO out of what the OP listed, the (rotary) PT6 has the toughest intonation (flat 2-3-5 combos, sharp 2-3 Eb, sharp open high G, kind of inaccessible slides) but would still likely be my horn of choice.The dozens I’ve played vary in quite a few ways but all share an even sweet spot across all ranges that project like mad. Plus these horns can be “pushed” very nicely (dare I say as opposed to an unmodified Thor). Always a solid choice and used ones come up for sale now and then. Late Ellis Wean recordings speak for themselves, in addition to SFS.

Although I don’t have much experience with the Wessex, I think york style horns require more accurate pitch + maintenance to achieve playing consistencies compared to other CC tubas. Not saying it’s not worth that type of investment. 8)

Nice to nerd out once a while!
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Itai, the PT-6P that I tried did have pitch tendencies like you described but honestly, it's been more than two years since I've tried one. I know I've grown as a player since then and I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to play another. Can you elaborate on the "pitch + maintenance" statement you made? Thanks!
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by lowtones425 »

Obligatory thumbs up for the Eastman since I have one...

No other advice other than echoing the idea of trying as many as possible, and buying one that you've tried in person.

Good luck!
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by itai »

Awegner2 wrote:Can you elaborate on the "pitch + maintenance" statement you made? Thanks!
I was pretty unclear. Pitch as in what you hear inside your ear. York style horns will eat whatever you send in. Not meaning that the slot is wide - but if you hear a certain pitch and play, and that pitch is out of the horn’s center, the sound will “bend”. And that will require some sort of constant awareness- Opposed to a rotor 6 that has very ‘defined’ slots. Of course, lots of players play on Yorks for the very reason that they are very nimble when steered confidently.

edit: try to get your hands on a Getzen G50
Last edited by itai on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Ha! That makes sense. My current horn doesn't slot as well as my old Cerveny so I kind of learned how to adapt to both? Whatever I end up buying, it'll be the one that feels the best to me. I really couldn't care less if the horn was Chinese or German if it suits me as a player.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by bort »

Whatever I end up buying, it'll be the one that feels the best to me.
So you need our recommendations for... :)
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

I wanted to know if anyone had recommendations on other horns to try!
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by bort »

There is a PT7 at Dillons... maybe worth a phone call to Matt?

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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

I saw that and a MW 2155 at Baltimore Brass. I've spoken to Matt recently but I didn't bring up the PT-7. Good suggestion!
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by olaness1 »

Just a quick addendum to the intonation post above. My PT6 is quite mouthpiece sensitive and some mouthpiece choices send it out of tune and others are much more easy to keep where I want it. For example, using a Schilke Helleberg II gives me two wonky notes (slide pulling needed) compared to none with a couple of copies of the same mouthpiece that I also own. If you are travelling to try out, make sure you bring a decent arsenal of mouthpieces to try.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Well, I did it. I bought the Wessex Chicago York. I was able to try out the Chicago Presence as well, but the York spoke to me, and my two colleagues who graciously accompanied me on my trip to Ferrysburg. I got the horn home, gave the slides and valves a light cleaning/ polishing and got everything moving like silk. Boy oh boy does this thing play. It's scary how good the intonation is with my PT-50. The resonance is unlike any other horn I've played (and I've played a second Wessex Chicago York). To anyone on the fence about looking in this direction, I highly encourage you to look past the stigma of the Chinese horn. As an engineer and machnist, I'm very impressed with the build quality of the instrument. You can expect excellent action with the vented pistons, crisp solder joints, and good slide alignment out of the box. There's no doubt that there was a learning curve to this tuba for me (coming from a VMI3301). Now that I've figured out how to control this monster, I can make a huge sound with minimal effort. If anyone in the Chicago area would like to try the horn out for size, feel free to contact me so you can see for yourself what I'm talking about. This is only my opinion, but I stand by everything I said. I'm proud to own this tuba and I'm looking forward to many years of growing as a player with it.
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by SousaWarrior9 »

Doc wrote:When do we get to see pics and hear audio of it? :mrgreen: :tuba:
As someone who was along for the ride on this expedition (and with the OP's permission of course) I'll post some pictures of him playing the horns as well as my own personal thoughts on the horns I got to try:

The York: While I'm not accustomed to CC tubas, I am used to steering 6/4 horns, so I felt right at home on this horn. I was first struck by the build quality (also true of the presence). Chunky valve stems, and excellent solder jobs, etc. The horn also resonates quite well in the cash register and producing a really smooth tone was effortless. Cranking the volume up on this baby filled the warehouse with sound, definitely a lot of fun to crank some air through it, and it will take as much as you can give. The pedals on it were also phenomenal. I've never been able to nail pedals on any horn so accurately and with such good projection. Absolutely outstanding in this regard. Throughout the range, it just felt like the horn was just taking my sound and throwing it out the bell, almost like playing itself. I think it's defiantly worth considering with the many other York copies out there for someone who is in the market for that kind of horn.

The Presence: Much of what I said about the York also applies to this horn (build quality, resonance, mid-register, etc) but it did have its own unique character. This one, as one might expect, had a lot more edge to the sound and more of a bark at louder volumes. When playing softly, it was hard for me to distinguish between the two, but as soon as you crank up the volume, this horn starts to growl a bit, with a more direct, directional sound than its larger-belled counterpart. It's kind of a nice fusion between an 'American'type sound and a 'German' type sound, if you're into that sort of thing. Personally, I prefer the less directional 'foggy' king of sound, so the York has a slight edge in my book, nut this is just preference.

The Berg: I also got to mess around on a Berg for a bit, but I'm not a bass tuba kind of guy, so my perception of how it played was not as in depth. I will say though, that the low register was surprisingly good. On the F tubas I've tried before, I've always gotten a tremendous amount resistance and really have to fight the horn to play, but it was very solid and easy (as far as F tubas go) on this horn, which I was very impressed by. Mid-to mid-upper register sounded ok, but I (and the two others who played it) struggled in the upper parts of the high register. Slotting and accuracy of the notes got pretty difficult as the rage went up, even with different mouthpieces. Luckily, most of the practical register that one would feasibly use is just fine, but any virtuoso solo stuff in the stratosphere might be problematic on this horn.

The Viverna: because I'm a BBb player primarily, I had to get my hands on at least one BBb. Luckily, they had a 4/4 5 valve BBb on hand. First off, this is on the larger size of 4/4, borderline 5/4 in my opinion. It was also HEAVY. Of course it felt heavier compared to the hand-hammered York, but it was particularly heavy all the same. Definitely a sturdy build but I could see it causing some back problems for some folks. Maybe it was because I played this right after the York, but it seemed very stuffy to me, especially in the low and pedal register. Obviously most horns will not seem free blowing when compared to a 6/4 like the York, but something about it seemed restrictive to me. Tone sounded ok, though. Worth looking at for an advanced high schooler or a collegiate tubist looking for a 'bands' horn.

Overall, I'm very impressed in general with he quality of these horns, especially the handmade examples.These do not feel like 'knock-off' horns at all, and after playing these, I think the York style horns deserve to be considered as a legitimate contender with any other manufacturer of a horn of this type, regardless of county of origin.

Had a great time with Andrew on this roadtrip, and I was happy to listen carefully and provide feedback as he tested them out. Always happy to help an old friend out. I got so much second-hand excitement seeing haw happy he was with this horn. Its a good fit for sure.

Pictures of the Chicago York, Presence and Berg Here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by Awegner2 »

Doc, I am hesitant to post any audio of the horn as I'm still getting used to "driving" a 6/4 CC but I do have some pictures to share:
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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

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Re: 5/4 or 6/4 CC tuba recommendations

Post by BrassedOn »

olaness1 wrote:If you are travelling to try out, make sure you bring a decent arsenal of mouthpieces to try.
olaness1, That last point is some really top top advice. I have been going through several somewhat vintage euphs and was really surprised when my standby mouthpieces were a bad match. I'm glad I went into the drawer to pull out even Bach 4G, Schilke 51, and some Wicks that I had not had on my face for years but kept around for students. And I had an array of European and large shanks in case of surprises. And not just cup depth but for how the piece matches the leadpipe or venturi.

And one advantage of having a couple of sets of ears join you on your roadtrip is that they can add their collections.

Cheers! and Good luck on the hunt.
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