Speaking of compensated valves,

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pete edwards
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Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by pete edwards »

Has anyone though of, designed, tried, manufactured compensated valves where the valves themselves were of larger diameter (and normal length) allowing the 2 sets of passages to be side-by side instead of stacked up & down ?
it seems that maybe the passages could be puzzle pieced together in such a way as to not have all the little constricting dents (more MAW style) and maybe the mass of the valve would be a little less, because the valve bodies wouldn't necessarily need to be 2X the diameter, with a little creative engineering.
Just thinking out loud, forgive me if I'm stupid, but please explain how I'm stupid. (in reference to this idea only, I know how I'm stupid in other ways, I'm not that dumb)
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pete edwards
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by pete edwards »

I wasn't thinking short action,it is the same either way. I'm just thinking of how one could alleviate the stuffiness of compensators. or maybe the stuffiness doesn't come from the valve, but all the extra tight bends in the extra short loops?
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by pete edwards »

bloke wrote: The good Eb tubas (assuming good valves), to me, are less "stuffy" (in the same range) than are some of the "good" (99.99%) non-comp F tubas (about which many regularly complain, here).
I don't want to wade into that debate, but it seems the design goals of the typical comp Eb are completely different that the typical non-comp F

I own an old Holton monster Eb which the valves (3) are pretty shot on, but otherwise has a pretty awesome low end & false tone range. I've often toyed with the idea of swapping in a comp valve section, because being a lowly trombone player I'd rather not have to think about which button to push AND which way to lip/slide pull/ raise my eyebrows or whatever one does to tune on the fly. I've always read that the comp Eb's have a stuffy low range & I'd hate to give that up on the Holton. I'll probably not ever get to that project anyway as I toot on that horn maybe an hour per year on average, but its fun to think about.
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by tofu »

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Last edited by tofu on Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pete edwards
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by pete edwards »

interesting, too much right now to pay for a horn I play an hour a year (maybe i'd play more if i fixed it up?)
but i have to wonder, would the modded Holton play any better than the Schiller? (in other words is it worth doing the project at all, or just play the schiller if it works OK)
I more had in mind a good condition valveset from someone's junk heap (for less than I paid for the Holton, which wasn't much), but that's probably a pipe dream
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by Peach »

bloke wrote:The Jinbao intonation is pretty good...
That's not always a given with Eb tubas.
That's not always a given with tubas. Period. :D
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by Voisi1ev »

tofu wrote:
bloke wrote: To me, the "stuffy" compensating BBb tubas are the old ones with :arrow: worn valves.
+!

I always roll my eyes when I hear all the testimonials from people about the stuffiness -as more often than not they come from somebody who played a 40 year old beat to death school horn. And those always had more years of use on them than other makes in schools because they were built like tanks and could take a beating. But worn valves from use are inescapable - especially considering the many testimonials we have had over the years on here from students bragging about how they never oil their valves. And worn valves are death for a comp. Certainly there were periods of bad builds by Boosey & Hawkes and Besson that resulted in poor playing horns with stuffiness, but that has nothing to do with the design and play of a well built BBb comp.


I just picked up a Bb Neo that seems to be in pretty great shape. Without using the S word, I have to say, there is significantly higher resistance levels than my Conn 52J (these tend to have a rep for having very open low registers, and I have a MAW valve set for it). That said, I like the low sound that comes out much better and the fingerings/slide pulling is way less janky, it just takes a bit more work. Right now I'm on a Baer MMVI after tying a variety of MPs. Still going back to a Wick 1L on occasion. I'm mostly looking for an easy speaking low range.

I assumed the response would be no, but one of the first things I did was ask Mr. Wilk on the possibility of MAW valves. Can't hurt to check.
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by iiipopes »

Hirsbrunner stacked their rotors for their version of a 3-valve comp tuba. See this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62355&p=518775&hili ... mp#p518775" target="_blank
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Re: Speaking of compensated valves,

Post by olaness1 »

Well, there's always the issue of the 2x 180 degree turn of the airstream in the fourth valve, as designed by B&H and never corrected. I've tried plenty of other compensators, and they have all copied in this rather stupid port design. All these 'improved models' all boast about their designs "ooh, 1 micron thicker here and a quarter micron thinner there than Besson, to improve everything" yet the two glaring errors of the B&H/Besson comp design are copied without question. The two turns as described above (for those with a comp instrument: look at the design of the valve from the outside, look where it would be obvious for the airstream to go, then remove 4th valve slide. Hold your hand in front of the opening you would expect the air to come out of and blow through mouthpiece. See what happens. Some wrong turns?), plus the too long 1st compensating loop and (hugely) too short 3rd compensating loop.

I play compensators, and not beat up school instruments. There's a local craftsman who offers a mod to improve these things. Once I've got the money, and the wife doesn't see...
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