Stuck at High F

[Cobra1502]

So I have been playing a few concertos that have been taxing my range. I have been doing many different things to increase my range overt the past months - practicing low, high, arpeggios, P.E.T.E Embochure Trainer, etc. While I can more easily play in the upper registers - I have hit a limit at high F. Trying to go higher causes my lips to breakdown and then nothing comes out. Once in awhile I have somehow hit the Ab when reaching for the Gb. Haven't been able to intentionally reproduce this.

I recently purchased an Eb to help me in the solos that are higher than F (really for anything above high D). Interesting enough - I also limit out on the same high concert F?? I would have thought I would have easily picked up a 3 to 5 semitones? Any help appreciated.

Thanks

[Donn]

I don't have much for you, but I'm no great player anyway. I mainly wanted to just reassure myself that I know what you're talking about - if we start with middle F it's surely the one right below the bass staff, and "high" and "low" Fs are the next ones up and down. I've never had a great high range, but it was a lot worse, for years. I think the Eb did help me, but only a little, because as you've noticed it doesn't just give you those extra notes. But it puts them in a place where they're harder to miss when you play them right, because the harmonics are farther apart, and just generally it's more fun to play a little higher. Once you get it, it will transfer right back to the contrabass. What's to get, depends on what you're doing wrong. Probably putting too much muscular effort into it, for one thing. Can you whistle? Notice how much more effort it takes to whistle a high note? A little, but not really very much. If you muscle up, it dies.

[Three Valves]

You and me both, Brother!!

I have just recently begun to extend to F#/Gb and G myself.

I suspect the answer is somewhere between “more practice” and “more air!!”



Edit after Bloke remark; it is difficult for me to even imagine higher pitches. The low, sonorous tones are what have driven me to the bass/tuba since 5th grade.

[Cobra1502]

@DONN I am referring to the F above the staff lines. Thanks

[Mark]

I have hit a limit at high F.

Do you mean the F just above middle C (first space in the treble clef) or the F an octave above that?

[Cobra1502]

I know this is a difficult range for most of us. However, there are many players that play this high and higher. I want to continue to work on this for solos. Thanks so far for the replies.

[Mark]

I am referring to the F above the staff lines.

Okay, search TubeNet for thread on high register playing. There are several good discussions, including an exceptional post from Roger Lewis.

Also, buy a couple of beginner - intermediate trombone solo books of solos you like and know, for instance movie themes or rock ballads. Play through all of those solos an octave lower than they are written until you feel you know them. Then, play them as written. Finding those high notes will come a lot easier when you know what to expect.

[Three Valves]

@DONN I am referring to the F above the staff lines. Thanks

Oh, you have performance major problems.

I have former marching band member problems!!

[timothy42b]

Caveat, I haven't tried to push high range on tuba myself.

But for what it's worth, I don't have any difficulty free buzzing that F, or even the C above it (8va middle C). I wonder if it would help if you buzzed it and tried to transfer to the tuba? I'm assuming you're a downstream player, this doesn't work so well for an upstream.

I've heard tubas play into the stratosphere at conferences like the Army Tuba-Euph. Those are impressive feats of development, but trumpets do it better.

[Levaix]

Play euphonium for a while. Or trumpet! Then that's a low note!

EDIT: On a more serious note I very much agree with bloke that this is often a psychological problem as much or more than a physical one. As primarily a euphoniumist, it takes very little effort for me to hit this note on BBb or Eb tuba. It is harder on the bigger mouthpiece though!

[timothy42b]

Play euphonium for a while. Or trumpet! Then that's a low note!

EDIT: On a more serious note I very much agree with bloke that this is often a psychological problem as much or more than a physical one. As primarily a euphoniumist, it takes very little effort for me to hit this note on BBb or Eb tuba. It is harder on the bigger mouthpiece though!

On trombone, that note is the relaxed center note of my range, or at least I attempt to play that way.

I am a downstream high placement embouchure. On trombone and euphonium I can place the mouthpiece where I need to. A tuba mouthpiece is large enough that it hits the nose if you try to place it higher. That placement may interfere with high range for some people.

For example, look at Sergei Nakariokov.

[Cobra1502]

Thanks for the replies. I have had some small break throughs. I can now hit high Gb G AB and A. Note: to avoid another survey this is the A above the high F above the staff.

These notes are not good and not consistent - yet. I have tried a little of what everyone has advised over the past couple days. What seemed to work for me was giving myself permission method from Bloke and a fast tongue strike to get the vibration going (like spitting something off tip of tongue that is stuck) from other forums that were referenced. I am going to try mouthpiece buzz that was recently posted. Keep the ideas coming.

Any ideas as to why both Eb and BBb range limit is the same note? Would have thought I would get a few more semitones on Eb.

[Mark]

A wildly-revered player (who occasionally posts on this site) admitted to me years ago (in a lesson) that they really only work to maintain a clear/resonant range to C5, because the highest pitch they ever encounter at their job is the B♭ just below that.

This is an excellent point. You should be able to play higher than you ever need to play. You would not buy a car that was only capable of going 60 mph when you intend to drive it 60 mph a lot. The strain on the engine and the possibility of breakdown are too great. I have always thought that your range should be three whole steps above the highest not you will ever need to play.

[Levaix]

Any ideas as to why both Eb and BBb range limit is the same note? Would have thought I would get a few more semitones on Eb.

You'll likely gain a few extra notes on Eb when those become more solid. Once upon a time my range on BBb tuba and compensating euphonium was nearly identical. Now those high notes are solid on euphonium plus I've added a few more on top, but tuba is still relatively shaky where it was. The horn may help, but it's you that determines the pitch.

[jonesbrass]

Thanks for the replies. I have had some small break throughs. I can now hit high Gb G AB and A. Note: to avoid another survey this is the A above the high F above the staff.

These notes are not good and not consistent - yet. I have tried a little of what everyone has advised over the past couple days. What seemed to work for me was giving myself permission method from Bloke and a fast tongue strike to get the vibration going (like spitting something off tip of tongue that is stuck) from other forums that were referenced. I am going to try mouthpiece buzz that was recently posted. Keep the ideas coming.

Any ideas as to why both Eb and BBb range limit is the same note? Would have thought I would get a few more semitones on Eb.

FWIW, I think you need two basic elements to make any range work on tuba: AIR and EAR. If you can hear it accurately in your mind's ear, and you have good air support, your chances of hitting the notes are increased exponentially. As to why you might have the same range on both Eb and BBb tuba, from my experience, I have the same basic range on BBb, CC, Eb, and F. The only thing that changes is the security of hitting the higher notes when playing on a higher-pitched tuba due to having partials that are farther apart. Again, for me, the only reason why I choose to play a contrabass tuba or a bass tuba for any given piece of music is the tonal requirement of the music and ensemble around me. YMMV.

[timothy42b]

These notes are not good and not consistent - yet. I have tried a little of what everyone has advised over the past couple days. What seemed to work for me was giving myself permission method from Bloke and a fast tongue strike to get the vibration going (like spitting something off tip of tongue that is stuck) from other forums that were referenced.

That suggests to me that tongue position (or the most common metaphor, vowel sound) may be a factor for you. It seems to be a big factor in trumpet and high register trombone; maybe for you that's true on tuba as well.

[happyroman]

Thanks for the replies. I have had some small break throughs. I can now hit high Gb G AB and A. Note: to avoid another survey this is the A above the high F above the staff.

These notes are not good and not consistent - yet. I have tried a little of what everyone has advised over the past couple days. What seemed to work for me was giving myself permission method from Bloke and a fast tongue strike to get the vibration going (like spitting something off tip of tongue that is stuck) from other forums that were referenced. I am going to try mouthpiece buzz that was recently posted. Keep the ideas coming.

Any ideas as to why both Eb and BBb range limit is the same note? Would have thought I would get a few more semitones on Eb.

A couple of suggestions. First,keep in mind that high and low notes are just fast and slow vibrations, nothing else. Second, development of the high register is something that takes time so that the muscles of the embouchure can develop enough to produce the faster vibratory rate.

The main thing as you play these notes is to focus on making them sound good. Make sure you sustain them for 6-8 seconds, striving to make them sound as good as possible. If you start the note, and immediately stop if it sounds bad, you will be teaching yourself to play a bad note.

This is one of Arnold Jacobs' philosophies "Bad notes can be made into good notes, silence can't." He taught Dale Clevinger an exercise for high range development when the CSO horns were preparing the Schumann Konzertstuck and he heard Dale practicing the piece. He told him to start in the upper middle register, where he could play comfortably, and play long tones, just one or two notes a day. But he had him play each note 30-40 times. At first, the beginning and end of each note didn't have to be his best tone quality, but the middle of the note did. Then, over time, the quality of the middle of the note had to be transferred to the beginning and the end. After a week or so, move the exercise up a half step and repeat. Over time, you will develop an excellent high register.

Another exercise Jake had was what he called the four note exercise. At quarter note = 60, play the same note three times and slur to the note an octave higher and hold it. For example, F-F-F-f. Play at a mf-f dynamic and focus on transferring the quality of the low note to the high note. Jake called this making the lower note teach the higher note. Start where the upper note is comfortable, and repeat the exercise, moving up a half step at a time.

A third exercise is based on the major scale. Play a quarter note slurred up to a dotted half note (again 60 bpm) in any key, starting on the tonic up an octave (Do-Do). Then follow the pattern Re-Do, Mi-Do, Fa-Do, So-Do, La-Do, Ti-Do. You can also do the exercise in reverse, slurring from the higher note to the lower note. This time the pattern is dotted half slurred down to a quarter note (Do-Ti, Do, La, Do-So, Do-Fa, Do-Mi, Do-Re, Do-Do).

On all of these, think of a tuba that sounds like a human voice singing with a low vowel sound (OH, OOH, or AHH) to keep the tongue low in the mouth so that a thick column of air reaches the lips and start with comfortably full lungs, playing at a mid dynamic (mf-f). Never forget to always strive for your finest quality of tone.

A couple of random thoughts at the end. Use legato primarily when initially developing the high register. This will help keep the tongue from rising in the mouth and cutting off the air stream. And always think very musically when playing in the high range. This will help develop a beautiful sound. You want to make sure not to overdo practice in the extreme ranges (high or low) keeping roughly 80% of your practice in the two octave cash register (low Bb/C to Bb/C just above the staff). The remaining 20% can be split between the high register and very low register. Rex Martin once broke it down even further for me (50% from low Bb to middle Bb, 30% from middle Bb to high Bb, 10% above high Bb, and 10% below low Bb). The main point is that playing too much, too high, can be detrimental to the development of the rest of your playing.

Finally, don't be afraid to let the embouchure change positions on the mouthpiece when changing register (high or low). Jake would often tell the following story to illustrate that point:

"In my second year at the Curtis Institute of Music I was studying Benvenuto Cellini, which goes to a G above our high C. I was having a terrible time playing that note. Mr. Donatelli, my instructor, was a fine tuba player, but he rarely played for me. I asked if he would play this part for me? So he took my tuba and he played it very well. But I noticed that right before he went to the high G, he shifted his embouchure on the mouthpiece. He moved down lower on the mouthpiece and a bell, a light went on in my head. I said aha! he broke a rule. He shifted on the mouthpiece there but he got the high G and it sounded good. I was a former trumpet player, as soon as I saw that and I broke the rules, I not only had high G, but I had G above high G…I haven’t had a bad time with high notes since."

The idea is that the placement of the mouthpiece on the embouchure should be the result of playing each note with your finest quality of sound. Jake didn't care where you put the mouthpiece as long as you sounded great. He would often say to me "Do whatever you want, but just sound better than everybody else. Then they will copy what YOU do."

[Cobra1502]

Thanks for the time taken to send the great replies.

[Mark]

Thanks for the time taken to send the great replies.

I just noticed your location. The absolute best thing for improving your high range are Genuine Saskatchewan Sealskin Bindings.

[TheTuba]

All i can say is sing, buzz, play.
If you can sing it, you can buzz it
If you can buzz it, you can play it, and often buzz higher than what you're intending.
Right now Im working my range up above a middle C (piano middle C)
For people who say "low range helps with high range", you guys are right, but at the same time playing up high helps wayyy more.
The more you play up there the better you sound, more tricks, et.cetera. (That's why you sound better on low/medium stuff, because you play there often)
I often do jazz improvs, with no valves down, and counting on the close partials up there to make it sound cool.
(High school tricks: If you don't know the pep-rally music, play it up an octave higher where the partials are so close that you literally think the note and it comes out with no valves)

There's no easy way, each person is different. Try to get with a university teacher if it becomes a major problem/ inhibiting you of higher performances