CSO York knock-offs

[ckalaher1]

Full disclosure: I don't own one, have never owned one, and will in all likelihood never own one.

As someone who has a left shoulder that is rustier than the Tin Man, I find them pretty comfortable to hold while on a rest.

[Awegner2]

Some days I love the leadpipe placement and some days I wish it wrapped further. It honestly depends on the height and geometry of the chair I'm in. Lower chairs make it considerably easier to hold. Regardless, I can deal with a small ergonomic blunder in exchange for the massive tone of the horn.

[bort]

Playing situations are so variable, I wouldn't want to leave anything to chance of what chair is available.

Another reason why I like the Miraphone 188 so much. For me, the ergonomics just can't be beat.

[Alex C]

The real problem with wrapping the leadpipe further around the bell is that the leadpipe had to be lengthened and Pop Johnson, the designer, specifically designed the lead pipe to be the length it is on the 2 York tubas. Change the length, change the way the horn plays and sounds.

And isn't that the problem with every single copy, from the Holton to whatever new one has just been made. If you look at the horn logically, some things do not make sense. Why is the 4th valve tubing bigger than 1-2-3 tubing? And why are the ports on the fourth valve the same size as the other valves since the tubing is bigger? Then there's that confusion between the valve section and the main tuning slide. The bore changes several times from 3rd valve to the tuning slide, about 4 inches. And that's not the only wierdness.

So, when the first European copies were made, the designer decided to fix all of those problems. The result is a fine playing instrument which produces a tone diametrically opposed to the York. The response is totally different but somehow it is a York copy? No. It's a lookalike.

And the same can be said for nearly every new version of the CSO Yorks in the last 20-plus years. Everybody wants to make the horn better. But don't sell it as a "York copy" because it ain't. Pop Johnson knew what he was doing, as all of the 1930's era Yorks testify every time you play one.

I understand that Philip Donatelli had trouble holding the York because of his big belly, which is one of the reasons he sold his to a young Arnold Jacobs. He wanted a longer leadpipe, too. Get a Conn or a King.

[Bnich93]

They sure would be easier to hold and play (OK...admittedly not as aesthetically pleasing to stare at pictures when fantasizing about buying them) if their mouthpipe tubes were run at a diagonal and wrapped further around the bell.

I feel this. Though holding it up at the weird angle is a good workout.

[Bnich93]

I happen to have very short upper legs, but also a very tall torso. I'm the type of person that towers over people when i'm sitting down and when I stand I gain about 3 inches from there. With my York horn I find that it must sit entirely on my right leg, rather than in between. In fact, that picture of Mr. Donatelli would not be how he plays because the horn doesn't meet his mouth. For me a tuba stand is really the only way to comfortably hold the beast for long symphonies.

[EdFirth]

With all of the other brass you hold it up to your face thereby putting it exactly where it is comfortable for you. Tubas come with the leadpipe soldered on at a specific height and angle. For me, they're almost always too low and and aimed downward(I always thought it was to prevent water from dripping out when the horn is sitting on the bell). But we're not all the same height and some blow more upstream, or downstream, than others. I think that was the thought process behind the Martins that you play with bits. I play with the horn sitting on my lap and want the mouthpiece to land right where I like it on my chops. So all of my horns, except the Martin have either had the leadpipe moved or a new one bent to fit me from straight stock. I Don't want to lean forward, have a foot on some kind of rest, or rest it on one leg(I've seen videos of Harvey Phillips doing this). I just want to sit with my best posture and be the best wind machine I can be. Some bemoan the little marks where the pipe and brace was attached. To me that's a non factor. My King 2341 has a leadpipe that comes around the bell and my King 1241 has one that comes off to the side. Both pipes have been put at my altitude and angle and they are both comfortable to sit with. The 1241 pipe causes the horn to turn clockwise which puts the sound more into the house than to the left. I have been lucky with having great repair guys in Roy Lawler until he moved to North Carolina then Tom Treece. Just some old tuba guy musings, all the best to everyone. Ed

[chronolith]

This is part of the reason I ended up with a PCK. Not as big but just as "big". And a completely sane leadpipe setup that is fully comfy.

[cambrook]

Why is the 4th valve tubing bigger than 1-2-3 tubing? And why are the ports on the fourth valve the same size as the other valves since the tubing is bigger? Then there's that confusion between the valve section and the main tuning slide. The bore changes several times from 3rd valve to the tuning slide, about 4 inches. And that's not the only wierdness.

I'd love to know the sizing of the 4th valve tubing and the main slide, and how they relate to 1-2-3. How does the bore changes several times (in about 4 inches) from the 3rd valve to the main slide?


Thanks in advance,

Cam

[roweenie]

All of the original .750 York tubas that I've seen (and I've seen several) feature a slightly-larger-than-.750 bore on the small side of the MTS immediately after the 4th valve (I don't have one here to measure at present, but I seem to recall a measurement of +/- .780). In fact, it's the only place on the horn that has that bore size tubing (the 4th valve circuit also measures .750 on the ones I've seen).

(IIRC, the .750 Holtons do this, too - probably copied from York)

The B&M York-master tubas I've seen have the same bore here (.748) as the rest of the valve circuits.

I suspect this feature is one of the things that gives Yorks their unique playing qualities - I'm told by people "in the know" that this is a critical place on a piston valve tuba. In a way, it actually makes sense in that it achieves the increase in bore (from .750 to .812, the large side of the MTS) in a more gradual way.

I've not measured the "Chicago York(s)", so I can't attest to any measurements on those particular instruments, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they had this same MTS set-up.

And yes, I've found the mouthpipe angle on those 6/4 Yorkophones to be somewhat awkward, too.