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Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:03 pm
by bigboymusic
How does one go about looking into getting a piston valve set? I know my way around rotors, but this will be the first set of BB pistons I have ever looked into purchasing. MW? Kanstul? Chinese? This would be to put on a Holton 345 body eventually...

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:12 pm
by bigboymusic
Joe, if it was a CC, I would have called you immediately! I love the JP CC valve set. I really would like to leave this baby in B-flat.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:30 pm
by bort
Joe -- the factory doesn't make BBb valve sets?

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:13 pm
by Ken Crawford
The valve set in question is off the JP HB21 clone I think... In that case, no BBb version.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:29 pm
by bort
My question was simply, doesn't JP make a piston valve tuba, with a valve section in that style?

Seems like the answer is no. Which is fine... but just curious.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:47 am
by bort
I meant a BBb piston tuba... but by this point, it doesn't really matter. :)

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:16 am
by roweenie
Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:34 am
by Ken Crawford
roweenie wrote:
Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:
Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:50 am
by roweenie
Ken Crawford wrote:
roweenie wrote:
Mark Finley wrote:If it was in need of a BBb piston valve set, I would be looking on ebay for a king tuba with a crushed bell, recording bell, or even better, the recording bell that is Missing. Tell them to keep that hard case if it comes with one, and just ship the body. That would work, wouldn't it?
Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Again, I honestly think there would be a slightly brisker market for untubed 19mm/.748 bore 4 valve clusters, but maybe it's just me..... :oops:
Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.
Glad to hear that. In my opinion, it's too small.
bloke wrote:King...as long as 11/16" bore is desired...and does not need to be rebuilt. 
 

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:34 am
by TubaSteve
If it was in need of a BBb piston valve Good idea for smaller tubas, but the bore (.687) is too small for the O.P.'s Holton 345 (.750).

Sam Gnagey has built some very nice 6/4 tubas with king .687 valve sections.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Glad to hear that. In my opinion, it's too small.


Bob, why don't you post a photo of the 6/4 Holton you built? Great looking horn!

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:35 am
by bigboymusic
I will have the 340 in my hands next Tuesday. My hope is that this will be the last big horn I purchase. (I know, haha) Pushing 50 years old, I'm hoping I get a good 10+ years more of good orchestral playing. While I am sure I will be putting a piston set on in the next 18 months, question for the gurus of production and function. What are the possibilities of putting a 5 valve Meinlschmidt rotor set on? I know from what I have been shown, the piston set would be an easy add. Curious as to the problems you might face?? I got to spend about 60 seconds once on a rotor 2165, and it was glorious....

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:36 am
by roweenie
TubaSteve wrote: Bob, why don't you post a photo of the 6/4 Holton you built? Great looking horn!
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=87366" target="_blank
bigboymusic wrote:What are the possibilities of putting a 5 valve Meinlschmidt rotor set on?
Excellent question - in fact, I've contemplated doing exactly this myself. On the surface (assuming you are starting with a valveless bugle) it should actually be easier than putting on a piston section (even obtaining the valves is easier), but my general aversion to rotary valves has held me back :tuba: :tuba: :tuba:

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:49 pm
by bigboymusic
Pretty much the same home it’s going to have at my place

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:39 pm
by bigboymusic
So non repair specialist question.... Would a valve block with no tubing+buying the parts to have the tubing+cost of assembly = ?? Would that still likely be less than the whole assembly plus labor???

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:36 pm
by roweenie
Valve block = piston valve assembly only (no tubes or crooks)

Valve set (or nest) = piston valve assembly complete with tubes and crooks


My best guess is that the cost of buying a valve block, all other parts individually, plus the labor of building the valve circuits after the fact, would be higher than buying the complete valve nest as would be provided by bloke (the only wildcard is we don't have a cost yet for purchase of a 4 valve block alone, but I suspect the savings won't be enough to offset the above added costs).

If you are building a CC, E flat, or F tuba, bloke's completely tubed valve nest is the cost-effective way to go, hands down.

The "issue" is for those who want to build BBb tubas. If you're OK with the aesthetics of it, the easiest and most cost-effective way would be to buy the valve set as offered, and then extend the crook ferrules on each circuit to achieve BBb lengths.

For those of us who are not OK with the aesthetics of the above mentioned method (and have the skill-set and resources to build our own valve circuits, or who actually prefer to do their own custom work), a valve block is the best way to go.

I guess it all comes down to what you want, and how much you are willing to spend to get it.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:06 pm
by The Big Ben
roweenie wrote:Valve block
The "issue" is for those who want to build BBb tubas. If you're OK with the aesthetics of it, the easiest and most cost-effective way would be to buy the valve set as offered, and then extend the crook ferrules on each circuit to achieve BBb lengths.

For those of us who are not OK with the aesthetics of the above mentioned method (and have the skill-set and resources to build our own valve circuits, or who actually prefer to do their own custom work), a valve block is the best way to go.
One of the posters who recently acquired a 3v Holton 340 was looking for some sort of conversion to 4v. Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option, another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes or, third, get a 4v CC valve set and stretch it to work for BBb.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:35 pm
by roweenie
The Big Ben wrote:Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option
I wasn't aware that this was an option. Could you supply your source, as I would be interested in this myself?
The Big Ben wrote:another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes

This is essentially the same procedure as building a valve set from scratch (which I have already addressed, previously). Even though you may save some money by using recycled parts (provided the radii of the old crooks, especially #1 and #2, are correct for the new valve block), the major cost is the labor to assemble it (which I am assuming he does not have the skills to accomplish, ie. his self-description as a "non repair specialist")

roweenie "failing to see any controversy in my previous statement"

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:02 pm
by The Big Ben
roweenie wrote:
The Big Ben wrote:Buying the entire 4v valve set (with tubes et. al) in BBb would be one option
I wasn't aware that this was an option. Could you supply your source, as I would be interested in this myself?['/quote]

The people who have converted top loader 3v horn to front loader 4v horns get 'em somewhere. Meinelschmidt? Hirshbruner?
The Big Ben wrote:another would be to buy at 4v block, attach the tubes from the 340 and craft a 4th set of tubes
This is essentially the same procedure as building a valve set from scratch (which I have already addressed, previously). Even though you may save some money by using recycled parts (provided the radii of the old crooks, especially #1 and #2, are correct for the new valve block), the major cost is the labor to assemble it (which I am assuming he does not have the skills to accomplish, ie. his self-description as a "non repair specialist")
OK. It's costly. Saw a sign in a gas station: "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

Done.

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:21 am
by Lee Stofer
In my experience, one can turn a Holton 340 BBb into a very nice 4-piston, or 4-piston/5th rotor BBb by ordering a Meinl-Weston/Melton Big Valve valveset, and specifying BBb-length slides. Baltimore Brass used to do this for customers. It is a very good fit. I had a customer bring me one of these custom horns. The owner was suspicious of the build quality, but I checked it out and told him that Beltimore Brass had done a very fine job. I serviced the instrument, and only did two very minor tweaks, and it was a glorious Holton 6/4 BBb with the benefit of a modern, 4-piston valveset. The instrument was designed for the .750"/.810" bore, and I'd strongly suggest keeping it that way.

To answer another post, it would not be easier to fit a valve-less bugle with a rotor valveset, primarily because of the 3rd and 4th valve tubing, that typically wraps around, through the body, and manifests itself into slides on the backside of the instrument. The 3rd and 4th circuits would likely have to be custom-bent and then braced-in to make this work, and the difference in labor cost would be substantial. It would be a pretty neat instrument, though!

Re: Valve Set Question

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:01 pm
by bigboymusic
Any rough idea on what a MW BBflat block might run? I'm guessing 3500-4K???