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water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be followed)

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:48 pm

new cimbasso...plays great...very lucky...couldn't be happier...

main tuning slide crook...bottom of the instrument...nib located at the very center of the crook...lever (actually "arm") to open/close is VERY long (for the sake if convenience/quickness/ease of access).

Due to the smallish bore size (combined with my extraordinarily energetic tons-of-warm-air playing :P :lol: ) the main slide crook fills up with condensation pretty quickly. As this instrument is MUCH easier to play (at least, for me) that my previously-owned one, I'm tending to play it much more often, and am tending to play more technical (read: fun) stuff with it...such as busy duets with almost no rests...

Even though I completely redesigned the water key lever ("arm") for quick/easy reach, the fact remains that this instrument does collect water quite quickly (much more quickly than any of my tubas).

I'm NOT willing to install one of those "dribble" water keys...I'm just not...and - frankly - I wonder if the dribble rate (even were I willing to use one of those things) would actually keep up with the rate that the condensation is created...

...so I'm wondering about installing an extraordinarily long (tall) nib (again: it is located at the lowest point on the instrument in playing position, so all water will travel there) so that it can "store" more condensation until I actually DO have a chance to empty it.

Acousticians will be horrified. I tend to dismiss the effects of such an anomaly as this proposed one in the bore of the instrument, and believe that the sine waves will tend to follow (assuming no leak) the "main path"...

...so what say ye (which, again, will be ignored), oh Great and Wise TubeNet Freak Jury...??

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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby pete edwards » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:24 pm

I think what you need is a more squared-off ("dual radius") bottom crook so more water can accumulate without puddling up at the low point of the radius. Then put the water key on the return radius so when you blow the water out you are blowing it toward the exit. with the key at the bottom of the single radius you blow some water past the exit and it falls back.
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby bloke » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:55 pm

interesting/good observation
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby djwpe » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:59 pm

Looking at the relative tubing sizes and the respective volumes, I don't think the nib will hold enough water to make an appreciable difference.

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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby Three Valves » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:06 pm

How about a big convex dimple, (a pimple, a blister??) to collect spit and put the nib at the bottom of that??
Who needs four valves??

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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby Art Hovey » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:29 pm

As you suggested, most of the water might stay up in the crook due to air trapped below it. That will certainly happen if the nib's inside diameter is very small, and certainly won't happen if the i.d. is large enough. Some simple experimentation will be needed to find out which is the case, i.e. how small is too small.

I prefer the slightly leaky water key with a facecloth wrapped around it to catch the drip. That's what I had on my helicon for quite a few years before I rebuilt the leadpipe with slightly larger tubing and installed a new non-leaky valve section.

This past summer and fall we have had much more tropical weather than usual in CT; practicing at 80-degrees in high humidity I have noticed much less water accumulating. That tells me that it's condensation, not saliva. I'm sure that in your part of the country it has been even more tropical. Have you been using an air conditioner in your practice room? If so, turn it off and your problem will be greatly reduced.
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby windshieldbug » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 pm

What you need sounds like the “water” reservoir designed for the original Epoch Buescher cornets.

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I can tell you that mine works just fine, and I would imagine that as a Buescher endorsed artist, they might help you with the design...
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby pete edwards » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:10 am

I know you understand what I'm on about, but for those of us who like visuals, plus its fun to do the math even if its irrelevant, but for kicks & giggles I CADded up the 2 scenarios I described above-

crooks.jpg
crooks.jpg (14.77 KiB) Viewed 2225 times


turns out the squared off crook holds 68% more water volume than the single radius crook when the bore is 100% constricted. When the bore is only 50% constricted, the squared crook holds 79% more volume than the single radius. That translates to approximately 70-80% more playing time, or 13.25 measures at 4/4 120bpm at mezzo forte, 68.5 degrees Fahrenheit and 50% relative humidity before having to stop to drain the sump!

note the down stream placement of the water key for efficient evacuation. I noticed in your photo the 4th valve loop water key is on the upstream side- you might want to consider reversing that one too, simple enough to flip the tuning slide around.

There are some that say that a squared off 1'st crook on a trombone gives better "feedback" to the player; something about reflection of sound waves yada yada yada.
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby bloke » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:40 am

I could pretend to have more capabilities than I have (i.e. "pose", as some attempt to impress people who don't know any better) but much more squared-off crooks possibly/probably require more tools (such as a mold for this specific crook) than I own. It was challenging enough to make this crook at this specific width with this specific taper (as the bore size grows by approx. .75mm from one end to the other). I guess (??) I could give it another shot, but that would involve making another one of those labor-intensive huge water key levers as well (as re-bending this one would likely weaken it).

I'm not sure that I would wish to increase the instrument's tolerance of additional water, but am more interested in a way to store (away from the bore) that which collects (until I have a chance to empty it...and I'm only seeking another thirty-seconds-or-so of time).

I'm not sure if Mr. Three Valves (somewhat of a water flow expert himself) was implying a nib such as this (nevertheless, he pointed me in this direction), but I wonder if this shape of nib would tend to act as more of a reservoir than would a tall open cylinder...as well as being less resistant to water flowing into it (??)

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Last edited by bloke on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby Donn » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:58 am

I took that more like this:
water.jpg
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby pete edwards » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:14 am

how about just one of those "dribbly" valves you hate but with a secondary reservoir below it so it doesn't constantly spray all over your shoes?
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby cjk » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:36 am

Perhaps the dumbest idea ever:

put a rotor valve in the center of the main tuning slide. leave the slide side ports open and facing down.

The water will then have big holes to go out quickly when you choose to activate it. The button to activate could be as fast as a valve because that's what it is. :)

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The disadvantage might be weight. In that case, there are always these:

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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby bloke » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:41 am

voila !!! :shock: 8)

cjk wrote:Perhaps the dumbest idea ever:

put a rotor valve in the center of the main tuning slide. leave the slide side ports open and facing down.

The water will then have big holes to go out quickly when you choose to activate it. The button to activate could be as fast as a valve because that's what it is. :)

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An artist, I am not.

The disadvantage might be weight. In that case, there are always these:

Image
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby cjk » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:44 am

I think a rotor normally turns 90 degrees (??). In the "normal" position, it should be perfectly aligned so it doesn't leak. In the "let the water out" position, it probably shouldn't be aligned perfectly. Maybe even only halfway open (45 degrees?) so the rotor ports are still halfway open to both sides so the water can flow out. Since there's less distance to travel, the release might even make it faster. edit--> on second thought, this might not be necessary.

I wouldn't cut your pretty tuning slide if you decide to do this. I'd make an alternate one just to see if this idea has merit. I'd guess you'd probably want to make two crooks. IIRC, it is a tapered crook from .656" to .689". Given the small side of the tuning slide is .656" (16.65mm) and the large side is .689" (17.5mm), the ideal rotor size might be around .6725" (17.1mm). A 17mm (.669", B&S Symphonie 5th valve size) rotor might be about right?
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby Bill B » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:06 pm

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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby YORK-aholic » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:10 pm

Electric solenoid valve to dump water operated by 12v Lithium Ion battery and a 6th valve lever looking appendage.
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Re: water key issue: TNFJ opinions sought (will not be follo

Postby bloke » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:46 pm

Probably, I should just time the elimination of water simultaneously with the approach of the most difficult passages...??
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