Valve Oils- My recent experiences

The bulk of the musical talk
Post Reply
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

I'm sure this horse has been sufficiently beaten but I just want to share my recent experiences with my new Wessex Chicago York and the various valve oils/ combinations that I have tried.

As a disclaimer, the statements that I'm about to make are based on my experience as a degreed chemical engineer with all of my work experience being in polymers. If you don't want to read all of this, skip to the TLDR at the bottom

I'll start by saying that, as someone who is really anal about maintaining anything mechanical, the very first thing I did with this horn when I took it home was take it apart and clean it. Overall, things looked fine. The slides were almost dead nuts true on my surface plate and had very very minimal alignment issues. Everything pulled smooth out of the box, but with a little extra work they're even better. In my opinion, the 5th rotor could have been cleaner out of the box. Everything was thoroughly cleaned, polished, and measured with a micrometer for my own reference before re-assembly. I also used telescoping gauges to check the ID of the valve casing. The fit between the piston and the casing comes out to right around 0.0011" per side. This is larger than some of the instruments that I've played before. However, based on having played the horn for many hours at this point and consulting several professionals about the clearance, the valves were all sufficiently tight enough to provide stable and in-tune slotting. Based on this clearance I began formulating an oil to appropriately take up the space.

After reading a lot of positive posts about UltraPure lamp oil, I purchased a bottle of the stuff and began thickening it up with 30W motor oil. This is where I'd like to discuss my first point here- UltraPure lamp oil is a paraffin oil. Yes like paraffin wax.... but an oil instead. Paraffin wax candles are (essentially) made up of the same building blocks as what's in the UltraPure lamp oil bottle. But it's not what blocks we're building with that makes a valve oil become "gummy" or "sticky" over time. Rather, it's how many of those building blocks are strung together. Paraffin wax candles, being solid at room temperature, are made unsaturated hydrocarbon chains that are likely around 30 carbons long (plus or minus a few). It's this chain length that determines the melting temperature of the substance. A longer chain paraffin will remain solid at elevated temperatures, whereas a shorter chain paraffin will melt sooner at elevated temperatures. If your paraffin chains are short enough, they'll be liquid at room temperature. Such is the case with the UltraPure lamp oil. These molecule chains are, according to the MSDS, between 5 and 20 carbons in length. Based on my experience, I would guess that this is a bell curve figure with the center about 12 carbons in length. That being said, under that bell curve, are molecules that are 20 carbons in length. 20 carbons is a substantially different situation than 12 carbons. I haven't done the research, but I imagine 20 carbons would be nearing a waxy substance. In the event that you're really bad about oiling your valves regularly, you might just end up washing away some of the shorter chain molecules with your saliva and leaving behind some of the longer chain molecules. The shorter chain molecules will be more easily dissolved by the partially non-polar parts of your saliva. With this in mind, if you oil your valves regularly with some mixture of UltraPure and another thicker petroleum based oil, I cannot understand how you'd ever end up gumming up your valves. I I thickened my mixture up to the point where I felt the slightest drag on the piston and that worked very well for me for over a month of playing ~5 days out of the week.

At this point, I had more or less settled with this mixture being 'good enough' but I was curious as to how airtight it was holding my valves. After a fresh coat of oil, I removed my first slide, plugged the outboard side with my palm and blew down the leadpipe of the instrument. I could feel a slight leak in the air pressure. I wasn't really concerned with this as, like I said, the instrument played very well. I did however, want to try something different after consulting with Dana Hofer in Palatine, IL. He mentioned that University of Illinois professor Mark Moore uses an oil stabilizer on his pistons that he then washes down with valve oil. He does this on all of his piston horns. After reading into the idea, I understood more of the logic behind it. Oil stabilizers create a thin film 'slick' on motor piston seals that doesn't drain off as easily when the engine is shut off and the oil drains down to the pan. It essentially prevents wear upon startup.

In my head I imagined my tuba pistons having a bi-layer lubrication of oil stabilizer, and my UltraPure concoction. The bottle I purchased (HyperLube) indicated that the formulation was 100% Petroleum based. Dana advised using Al Cass as a good oil to wash down that slick layer. I don't think this was coincidental. This is where I'd like to talk about a second point- mixing synthetic and conventional oils. From a chemical standpoint, there is no reaction that will take place between a synthetic and a conventional oil. They're made of the same building blocks and are both petroleum distillates. Yes. They're the same thing, just different carbon lengths. The only thing that makes these valve oils different from the aforementioned paraffin oils is degree of saturation. Find a good educational resource if you'd like to know more about this topic. Synthetic oils are all petroleum based molecules that are exceptionally uniform in length. They might span 10-13 carbons in length instead of 5-20 in length. You need those 5 carbon long molecules to balance out your 20 carbon long molecules. If you mix in synthetic oils, you can end up shifting the peak of the aforementioned bell curve and end up with something wax-ier than you'd like. That is my hypothesis on the rational behind this heuristic.

TLDR: I took Dana's advice and put a very thin coating of this oil stabilizer on my pistons and re-inserted them into the casings to see how airtight the seal was. I think my eyes would pop out before I could blow past the valves at this point. Playing a few notes yielded a slightly more stable slot than what I was getting before. I then began to wash down the heavily lubricated valves with my lamp oil mixture until they moved freely. I checked for airtight-ness and it was still there. I swear I can feel a marginal difference in the stability of the horn with this method. Like I said, the horn played well enough for me to shell out 10K to buy it before I did all of this. I just like it even more now! My friend also tried it on his old Martin Mammoth and felt a noticeable difference in his lower register response. Based on our experiences, I felt I had to share this method with the TubeNet community. Now, please enjoy a few photos of these two aforementioned horns.
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

Looks like the pictures were too big of a file to upload... I'll work on that!
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Donn »

Interesting!

Is this Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer?

The process you describe - wipe the stabilizer onto the pistons, then rinse the valves down with lamp oil - do you repeat this every time, or do you occasionally skip the stabilizer?

Your 30W motor oil is also much thicker than lamp oil, and by itself would gum up the valves a lot like the stabilizer did. Do you imagine the same process might work, an initial coat of heavier motor oil followed by a flush with lighter normal valve oil? (No extra stabilizer, just ordinary motor oil in this case.)

Do you have any thoughts about where the stabilizer oil is, when the valves are in playing condition? Does it simply mix in, is it clinging to surfaces, lingering in ports ...?
User avatar
SousaWarrior9
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by SousaWarrior9 »

Donn wrote:Interesting!

Is this Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer?

The process you describe - wipe the stabilizer onto the pistons, then rinse the valves down with lamp oil - do you repeat this every time, or do you occasionally skip the stabilizer?

Your 30W motor oil is also much thicker than lamp oil, and by itself would gum up the valves a lot like the stabilizer did. Do you imagine the same process might work, an initial coat of heavier motor oil followed by a flush with lighter normal valve oil? (No extra stabilizer, just ordinary motor oil in this case.)

Do you have any thoughts about where the stabilizer oil is, when the valves are in playing condition? Does it simply mix in, is it clinging to surfaces, lingering in ports ...?
As the aforementioned "friend with the Martin Mammoth" in the original post, I''ll do my best at addressing these questions:

-I believe the specific oil stabilizer in questions was Hy-per Lube if memory serves me right

-As for the oiling process, we added a tiny dab of the hy-per lube on to each piston, and spread it evenly over the surface of each valve to form a thin coat. Then, it was simply a matter of adding more and more lamp oil to the valves until they no longer moved like molasses.

-In regards to repeating the process, we just did this a few days ago, so I've not had to repeat the process yet, although I imagine that the stabilizer will remain on the valves for quite some time given its viscosity, and I will only have to oil with the lamp oil (or another oil of my choosing) until it wears off and I need to re-apply.

I was skeptical of this idea when we were initially discussing it, but I decided to try it out, seeings as how if I was satisfied I could just wipe the pistons clean and go back to my current valve oil, but as the OP said, the difference in the low register is noticeable. Everything from low Bb down to pedal Bb speaks more easily now, which is nice.

I haven't yet tried this on any of my other horns (mainly because my sousaphone has a number of leaks in places other than the valves that need to be addressed first, and I've enjoyed how my current valve oil works on that horn) but I might eventually

I think this is one of many decent solutions (pun intended) for any horns with loose tolerances and is a good way (among others) to get both a good seal and fast valve action for a pretty low cost. Give it a try if you're so inclined, or just splash whatever's lying around on your valves, whatever works best for you and your instrument.
"Some men are macho men. Others are Martin men"

It's that word "handcraft"...
User avatar
SousaWarrior9
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by SousaWarrior9 »

bloke wrote:Matt's response (in the form of a separate thread) was obviously the appropriate one, but (as others here know me pretty well) I just wanted to see if I could exceed the number of inches of the original post in my response.
It aint about inches, Bloke, its all about how you use it :wink:
"Some men are macho men. Others are Martin men"

It's that word "handcraft"...
User avatar
SousaWarrior9
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by SousaWarrior9 »

bloke wrote::lol:

well...perhaps mine, then, entered into the wrong...

uh...

thread.
:lol:
"Some men are macho men. Others are Martin men"

It's that word "handcraft"...
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

To answer some questions:

I used Hyper Lube, as Wyatt mentioned.

I will continue to oil my valves with my lamp oil concoction per my normal interval (every 2 or 3 times I play).

I don't think the 30W machine oil or even something like a 80W gear oil would do the same thing because the viscosity difference of the Hyper Lube is staggering. The intent (I believe) is to leave a very thin slick on the pistons. 30W oil would end up being thinned out too quickly.

I'm also fairly confident some of this is in my head. People tend to find things they're looking for. Maybe it's all confirmation bias, but I've had 3 separate people indicate that the lower register seems to have a better response on the horn. A tolerance of 0.0022, in my machining experience hold on to the very low sonic pressure of playing the instrument. The human lungs can only exert a pressure of ~2psi if my memory serves me correct. You don't need less than 0.001" tolerances to hold even that. Given that the instrument is, as mentioned, an open-cone bugle, the back pressure of playing is undeniably a fraction of that.

In summary, I do believe there is some serious merit in considering valve oil viscosity with respect to piston clearances. Is it something that would make a difference for an amateur like me? Maybe not.
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Donn »

Awegner2 wrote:I don't think the 30W machine oil or even something like a 80W gear oil would do the same thing because the viscosity difference of the Hyper Lube is staggering. The intent (I believe) is to leave a very thin slick on the pistons. 30W oil would end up being thinned out too quickly.
It occurs to me that it may turn out to make a noticeable difference when the valves are "dry", that is, haven't been recently oiled. That's one of their claims, is that their stuff is on the bearing surfaces at cold start when everything else is gone - but whether it will help or hinder they don't say, because of course like everyone else they don't care about tuba players. I think in that situation my lamp oil / motor oil mixture behaves differently than commercial valve oil, but it has been so long I couldn't say for sure.
User avatar
ppalan
3 valves
3 valves
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:40 pm
Location: Montgomery County, PA

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by ppalan »

This is a very interesting discussion to me. My question though, is how would this process work for rotary valves?

Pete
ppalan
Mirafone186 CC 4v
Yamaha Eb 321
Wessex "Berg" F
Bnich93
bugler
bugler
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:39 pm

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Bnich93 »

Is there a correlation between using lamp oil and having to oil your valves every couple of days? I use resilience oils 'light' valve oil maybe twice a month on my piston horn and maybe 3 times a year on my rotary horn and my valves are always free and easy.
Hirsbrunner HB50 w/Warburton 30DL
John Packer 377s w/Parker Cantabile
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

Bnich, I don't think I have to oil them every few days, I just do. It's probably overkill. I've honestly never stopped oiling them to find out how long they can go without drying up. My viewpoint is that just because a piston moves freely doesn't mean it's appropriately lubricated. Your saliva will keep pistons moving (more or less) but will not prevent wear like valve oils will.

Pete, I imagine that different rotary valves with different tolerances might have different results. In the case of a rotary valve, you have 5 surfaces to concern yourself with. For my 5th rotary valve, I used 30W machine oil on the radial and axial surfaces on the top and the bottom spindle. For the actual sealing face of it, I used Hetman's. I did this before formulating any lamp oil or oil stabilizer mixtures. Perhaps I should experiment with this next? Not to get off topic here, but how do you like your Berg? I was fairly impressed with the ease of playing in the low register.
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

As promised, here are the pictures of the two horns side by side with my short self and considerably taller colleague. Hopefully these go up this time.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
Posts: 5977
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Donn »

I got to the auto "parts" store today (took me a minute to write that, since of course "parts" is the one thing they don't have, but anyway ...), and got a big bottle of Hy-Per Lube.

Lube tuba #1 is an old Pan American Eb Giant Bass. I wiped on some of this thick oil (somewhat like thin honey) and put them back in, without bothering to really wipe them down. These valves are so worn that the tuba was semi-playable, lubricated with straight Hy-Per Lube. I mean, not fast, but the very light springs could easily push the valves back up, fast enough to play at a moderate tempo. Then I poured on a little straight lamp oil, to get them to move acceptably fast.

Tuba #1 was egregiously bad. The second valve tended to be very flat, pitches in general required a lot of attention and more skill than I could really count on having. My casual impression is, it's considerably better. Both with straight heavy oil, and then with that washed down to playable condition. Unfortunately, I didn't think to fire up the cellular phone and put it to a tuner app, but tuner work doesn't really expose the kind of problems I was having with this thing - I could get it to match a pitch, I just couldn't reliably hit those pitches when playing. So I sat down and played a couple elementary light classical tunes, and while not perfect it's a lot closer to the mark now.

So maybe this just goes to show that a tuba with terribly worn valves works better with heavier valve oil. I don't think that would surprise anyone, with the possible exception of people who were trying to get there with intuitions based on pressure at the valve etc. The valves sure feel nice, though. I've used heavy mixes that made valves kind of sluggish, and it makes me wonder if there really is some kind of laminar thing going on.

[edit]
Lube tuba #2 is a Holton 109. The one with the Holton patented short stroke valves:
Image

Its intonation defect, for me anyway, is that with F in tune, the area around Bb and C above that - lower mid bass clef - is flat. Above D it can go sharp, below the staff it can go sharp. The grease job didn't cure that. It's possible that it made it easier to work around the flat spot with breath support, but I can't say for sure.
User avatar
Awegner2
bugler
bugler
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:34 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Valve Oils- My recent experiences

Post by Awegner2 »

Donn, I'm glad to hear that you got a positive response! I swear it's not in my head that the response was better on my horn after doing this. That Hyper Lube makes for great slide grease for on-the-fly adjustments of all your top action slides!
Andrew Wegner
Wessex Chicago York
Post Reply