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Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:32 pm
by windshieldbug
8)

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:53 pm
by MaryAnn
My very short description of amateur vs professional is that the amateur's focus is on what he is doing, while the professional's focus is on what is going on around him. The rest is skills.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:04 pm
by Patrase
As an amateur I have had the good fortune to play with a very good (top 3 in the country) brass band. As someone with a full time non musical job and a family time to practice, warm up, do studies etc (like what bloke said is discussed here often) is not something I have. What I have learnt is how to play in an ensemble, to readjust my mindset to listen constantly to the first play and imitate their style and intonation and have the courage to play even if they (rarely) make a mistake or are absent.
I have also learnt to not follow the conductor as much and listen to others for for changes in tempo and start of phrases etc.

So thanks bloke it is a great post as I feel it articulates what I have learnt over the last few years.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:35 pm
by Worth
Thanks for a great post with lots to absorb. As an amateur, courage (or confidence) has always been a pet peeve of mine, or rather the lack thereof on the part of some amateur players who otherwise would have the skills to make a difference, if only they weren't waiting for someone else to come in first. Makes you want to pull your hair out. Quite frustrating in the non-audition community band setting, an ever-present lag (loss of energy) which holds the ensemble back. Of course, there are always those with quite enough courage to add that final stinger when one is NOT called for (and then think it's funny). I always felt that amateurs do it for fun and professionals do it for money and, hopefully, it stays as fun as possible.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 pm
by roughrider
Thank you for a terrific post. I will use it when working with my beginning students tomorrow! :tuba:

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:09 pm
by Lars Trawen
Bloke wrote
tuning: There are (more, but) two primary tuning systems used in western music: equal temperament and mathematical temperament.
Thanks for a thought-provoking post.
I've always wondered which of the both tuning system tuba players refer to when they talk about tubas playing in perfect tune.
I've asked many people without getting a clear answer.
Since it's very seldom with instruments like piano and organ playing with bands it's more naturally to play the natural tuning.
In my ears it tunes better. I also believe that we in bands automatically play so whithout thinking of it.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts about it, thanks.
Lars

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:12 pm
by timothy42b
Well said. Bravo.

A pet peeve of mine: musicians, sometimes highly skilled, with no situational awareness, who show up in a group that is respectful of each other during warmup, and proceed to blast away ignoring everybody else. Sometimes young, not always though. If you're not paying attention, how are you going to listen, blend, match articulation, support the lead instead of overpowering it, etc>

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:22 pm
by GC
Do you consider semiprofessional to be an actual thing?

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:20 am
by jperry1466
Excellent points, bloke, and timothy42b as well. As one who has been fortunate to play both professionally (not a lot) and now in my dotage, amateurly (that's both a state of being and a descriptor), those points hit home to my job as a teacher. It is my job to drum (pardon the pun) those things into my students' heads, but it is their job to implement those habits into their own playing. Problem is, musicians are often so ego-driven, that ego often gets in the way of their/our ears and sense. Thanks for a great, well thought out post.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:08 pm
by GC
I was asking you. Sorry, I should have been clear.

I was thinking the whole paid enough to make a living/paid fairly regularly but can't make a living from it/rarely if ever paid progression of professional/semipro/amateur. But folks at all points in the spectrum can be professional and behavior and demeanor. Lack of professionalism will seriously shorten one's professional and semipro status, though. REAL professionals are the shining example.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:38 pm
by Donn
GC wrote:REAL professionals are the shining example.
Professional encompasses any way to make money at it, so there are many different kinds of examples. Some may be more shining than others. Semiprofessional means you don't have to make as much money.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:57 pm
by k001k47
GC wrote:I was asking you. Sorry, I should have been clear.

I was thinking the whole paid enough to make a living/paid fairly regularly but can't make a living from it/rarely if ever paid progression of professional/semipro/amateur. But folks at all points in the spectrum can be professional and behavior and demeanor. Lack of professionalism will seriously shorten one's professional and semipro status, though. REAL professionals are the shining example.
Some professionals professional more professionally than other professionals

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:51 am
by timothy42b
Long ago, back in the 70s before most of you were born <!> I remember a nonmusician asking me if I were a professional musician. I struggled for an answer - was he asking about my level of skill?

then he asked the follow-up question: are you a union member? Well, that one I could answer, I was (for those green sheet jobs).

He was satisfied. "then you're a professional."

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:15 am
by Bowerybum
“In the days before machinery men and women who wanted to amuse themselves were compelled, in their humble way, to be artists. Now they sit still and permit professionals to entertain them by the aid of machinery. It is difficult to believe that general artistic culture can flourish in this atmosphere of passivity.”

Aldous Huxley, The Doors of Perception

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:55 am
by Ted Cox
Author Steven Pressfield has written a couple of books regarding the differences between amateurs and professionals. His first book on this subject is "The War of Art". His follow-up book is "Turning Pro". To follow are some quotes from both books, which will give everyone a different perspective on how we typically think of professional and amateurs. What blocks us from "turning pro" is our own resistance.

"Grandiose fantasies are a symptom of resistance. They're the sign of an amateur. The professional has learned that success, like happiness, comes as a by-product of work. The professional concentrates on the work and allows the rewards to come or not come, whatever they like."

"Rationalization is resistance's right-hand man. Its job is to keep us from feeling the shame we would feel if we truly faced what cowards we are for not doing our work."

"The amateur does not love the game enough. If he did, he would not pursue it as a sideline, distinct from his "real" vocation. The professional loves it so much he dedicates his life to it. He commits full-time."

"All of us are pros in one area: our jobs. We show up everyday. We show up no matter what. We stay on the job all day. We are committed over the long haul. The stakes for us are high and real. We accept remuneration for our labor. We do not overidentify with our jobs. We master the technique of our jobs. We have a sense of humor about our jobs. We receive praise and blame in the real world."

"A professional does not show off."

"A professional does not hesitate to ask for help."

"The professional gives an ear to criticism, seeking to learn and grow."

"The professional cannot allow the actions of others to define his reality."

"To feel ambition and to act upon it is to embrace the unique calling of our souls. Not to act upon that ambition is to turn our backs on ourselves and on the reason for our existence."

"The amateur is an egoist. He takes the material of his personal pain and uses it to draw attention to himself. He creates a "life," a "character," a "personality."

"The habits and addictions of the amateur are conscious or unconscious self-inflicted wounds."

"Amateurs fear being excluded from the tribe."

"The amateur is a narcissist. He continuously rates himself in relation to others. He insists that others share his view."

"The amateur allows his worth and identity to be defined by others."

"Becoming himself means being different from others and thus, possibly, violating the expectations of the tribe, without whose acceptance and approval, he believes, he cannot survive."

"The culture of Twitter and Facebook is paradise for the amateur." "The amateur tweets. The pro works."

"The amateur sits on a stool, like Lana Turner at Schwab's, waiting to be discovered."

"The sure sign of an amateur is he has a million plans and they all start tomorrow."

"Fear of self-definition is what keeps an amateur and amateur."

"Here's the truth: the tribe doesn't give a ****. There is no tribe. Each individual is so caught up in his own bullshit that he doesn't have two seconds to worry about yours or mine, or to reject or diminish us because of it. Our lives are entirely up to us."

"The professional refuses to be iconized."

"Warriors fight scared. Play for tomorrow."

Blowing through these two books, those are the quotes that I had underlined - although there were plenty more. A different perspective on pro v. amateur, brought to us by Steven Pressfield - a writer, not a musician. The BEST sentence in both books comes at the end of The Art of War. Pressfield writes: "resistance is the dragon that guards the gold." Each of us must fight our very own dragon each and every day in order to recover the gold hidden within each of us.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:50 pm
by Three Valves
Live music and/or stage performances are much more affordable than major league sporting events. Wasn’t so 20 years ago...

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:56 am
by tubeast
I personally do not agree with many of Mr. Pressfield´s quotes stated above.
In my opinion, the listed samples convey the idea that the status of "Amateur" in any field show traits of bad character and are, at least, a waste of time.

NO. being an amateur tubist (or an amateur ANYTHING) is NOT a waste of time.

The one that makes me smile, though, is the one concerning modern social media. True food for thought...

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:41 am
by Worth
tubeast wrote:I personally do not agree with many of Mr. Pressfield´s quotes stated above.
In my opinion, the listed samples convey the idea that the status of "Amateur" in any field show traits of bad character and are, at least, a waste of time.

NO. being an amateur tubist (or an amateur ANYTHING) is NOT a waste of time.
Quite a different spin by Mr. Pressfield, almost trollish. But you know what they say.... opinions are like a******s, everyone has one
:tuba:

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:53 am
by Ted Cox
Perhaps read one or both books before reaching a conclusion. There are other ways to view most everything.

Re: "amateur"/"professional" - skills not often discussed (h

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:15 pm
by Radar
(Note this post should have been above Blokes last post, I deleted it to redo it, because I thought it was too much about me)
Although I get the occasional paying gig, I consider myself a hobbyist musician or amateur. I play regularly with both amateur and pro musicians. My experience is that there are some amateurs I've played with that were every bit as proficient on their instruments as some of the pro players. I agree totally with the original post about the important aspects of playing as a pro (or a high end amateur). Timing, ability to sight read (relatively error Free), ability to play in tune, and listen and blend are all tools pros and advanced amateurs need to have in their tool kit. I do think there is one thing bloke left out regarding being an important characteristic of a pro: dependability and reliability (although not a playing characteristic). There are players in our area that are more instrumentally proficient than I am, but I've been told that I'm above some of them on call lists because the director knows if I agree to do the job I will be there well before the down beat, I'll be warmed up and in my seat prepared and ready to play, and I won't blow him off because a higher paying gig came along after I committed to his.