History of the CC Tuba's Orchestral Dominance?

[The Tuba Fish]

Could anyone enlighten me regarding when the CC tuba began to take over (especially US) orchestras, and when it took its place as the professional's big tuba? Also, other than Germany and perhaps England, are there places where the CC is not considered the primary professional orchestral tuba? Many thanks.

[MacedoniaTuba]

I can answer partly the second question. I would say most of the European countries are influenced by German tradition of playing BB flat tuba. So I am pretty sure the area where I live, everybody plays Bb tuba(Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria) Except for Macedonia, where it used to be a tradition to play Bb but now, the philharmonic(me) and the opera players play both C tubas. Also I know that in Austria, Czech, Russia, Slovakia and Ukraine, Bb tuba is more dominant than the C tuba, due to the German influence.

[toobagrowl]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89139

[tubeast]

From my Observation it seems as if C-tubas were more widely spread over countries such as Italy, Spain, and Portugal.
At least I have encountered more Amateur tubists in/from those countries playing C-tubas rather than BBb.

This observation is based on a total of maybe 20 encounters, so it may not be overly applicable.

[Snake Charmer]

One traditional reason for playing C tuba in the U.S. may be the tradition of having band music written transposed. The orchestra parts are written concert key bass clef, so it seems more comfortable to play it on a C instrument, when you are used to play Bb instruments from Bb treble clef sheets, even more when you have learned to read bass clef before with playing piano or singing in a choir (there where very few lady tuba players around 100 years ago...).

[Ken Herrick]

HUH?

[Matt Walters]

GUS HELLEBERG. Just as today's orchestra "wanna be" have to play a silver plated 4 piston, 5th rotor tuba because their teacher who studied with Arnold Jacobs did, Gus Helleberg was a rock star player in the USA who for some reason decided he preferred to play CC tuba.
Imagine this late 1800's early 1900's train of thought:
I want the best tuba sound for a orchestra job. Who sounds best right now? Everyone says Gus Helleberg is the hands down best. What does he play? A Conn CC tuba (though really a Sanders). I should buy a silver plated CC tuba like he has. What is that? Conn is not offering rotor CC tubas to us mere mortals but I can get a CC tuba with piston valves? That is what I will order. Maybe York will make a CC tuba.
WHY DID GUS HELLEBERG PREFER CC TUBA? Someone please find a letter where he wrote the answer to that question.

[iiipopes]

HUH?

The orchestra and concert band tradition is to write tuba parts in concert bass clef notation.

What Snake Charmer is talking about is the history of brass band notation, especially in the UK: just like in a concert band score there are both bass clef euph parts written in concert pitch and transposed treble clef notation euph parts for those who prefer to read treble clef, such as converted trumpet players, brass band notation, in order to have group lessons for all instrument, wrote their tuba parts the same way, as transposed treble clef notation.

I know: clear as mud.

[bort]

Related question for the music historians -- why did Bb become such a widely accepted key to begin with? Starting with 2 flats, instead of starting with no flats or sharps...? Never made any sense to me!

[Kirley]

Related question for the music historians -- why did Bb become such a widely accepted key to begin with? Starting with 2 flats, instead of starting with no flats or sharps...? Never made any sense to me!

It’s great for beginning band. It allows the use of open/first position for the low brass and trumpets, key of C for Bb instruments, and key of G (only 1#) for the Eb instruments. The key of C for beginning trombones is not great. A starting pitch that’s floating out in the middle of nowhere (6th position) is not the best recipe for success. Also, for beginners, getting above the Bb at the top of the staff is tough and splitting the scale into different octaves doesn’t help since most kids can’t reach 7th position for the low B until they’re in middle school or later.
I’m sure there are other reasons, too.

[Kirley]

Or were you asking about why they made tubas, trombones, and trumpets have open bugles in Bb? I just realized that’s probably what you meant. My bad.

[iiipopes]

Related question for the music historians -- why did Bb become such a widely accepted key to begin with? Starting with 2 flats, instead of starting with no flats or sharps...? Never made any sense to me!

The BBb is an extension of Adolph Sax developing a family of instruments that with transposed treble clef notation (still used except for bass trombone in British style brass bands - reasons for another thread) could all be played with the same fingerings, all the way from Eb soprano to (originally) Eb bass, with Bb soprano, Eb alto, and Bb tenor (narrow) and baritone (wide) (later euph). BBb then, was the natural extension of this series. Now, why did Adolph Sax develop his original Saxhorns Eb and Bb rather than F or C? That is a question for the historians.

Adolphe_Sax_instrument_catalogue.jpg

[bort]

The BBb is an extension of Adolph Sax developing a family of instruments...

Really interesting stuff! Thanks!

Now, why did Adolph Sax develop his original Saxhorns Eb and Bb rather than F or C? That is a question for the historians.

Yep, that was my actual question (probably poorly worded). Although it's completely arbitrary where to start, it just seems like Bb is more arbitrary than C.

[windshieldbug]

Don’t forget that a tuba ancestor (the ophicleide) was built in both Bb AND C and was often used in mixed pairs so that one could compensate for the more questionable notes on the other...

And keyed bugles often came in Eb and Bb.

[iiipopes]

extra credit: Which manufacturer, today, makes the only "legitimate" saxophone that is (via its pedigree) NOT a "copy of a saxophone" ?

OK. I'll bite: Selmer?

[swillafew]

I couldn't find William Bell's name in there, but I heard back in the last century that he more or less demanded CC players, and he was doing a lot of teaching. He taught 3 of the teachers I had, and the other one was a prodigy of one of the first 3.

Having said that, none of those teachers I had gave a (your expletive here) what horn any of their students played. One liked to say, "that thing won't make a sound until you pick it up".

[Art Hovey]

"Why Bb?" I think it's because an average-size adult can reach 7th position on a Bb trombone.
"Why CC?" I keep reading that a CC tuba is more nimble than a BBb, but how many orchestra tuba parts require nimbleness?
A better reason is the E-natural above the staff which appears fairly often in symphonic literature, but almost never in band music. That note tends to be risky on a BBb tuba.

[Donn]

I don't know about saxhorns, but Sax made a parallel family of saxophones in F and C, as I understand it for the orchestra etc. market. He's supposed to have made them to slightly narrower proportions for a sweeter tone, as can be seen in the C melody, the last survivor made in considerable numbers in the first half of the last century, though it isn't real hard to find a C soprano if you care to. The F baritone is impossibly rare. Maybe the saddest case is the F alto - Conn brought it back in the '30s (?), but it didn't do well so they dropped it and used their remaining inventory for practice repairs. Sad because by some accounts it was a great sounding instrument.

Anyway ... the point in the present context is that the C/Bb dichotomy was already there, if it's true Sax made a F/C family for classical music.

The trombone theory makes sense - trombones have been around a real long time. Assuming players of yesteryear had long enough arms to play Bb 7 position.

[Charlie C Chowder]

I just made a trip to the Boston area. At a dinner with my daughter's in-laws the night before we left, the Mother gave me a C melody tenor saxophone. It had been setting in the basement for years and the case was covered in a thick coat of dust. It is a Beuscher, stenciled with Carl Fisher. It plays great and I like the sound so much that I bought a matching one off of EBay for parts. They are just short of a hundred years old, about a year apart. As they both came with all of the parts needed, I have a lot of reeds and a spare mouth piece as well. The second came with a mute. I have never seen one. My local music store was happy to sell me the their small stock of reeds at a big discount as well. The sound is very sweet.

Lucky Me,
Charlie C. Chowder

PS It has been fun looking up the music stores stamped on the old paper reed holders.

[BopEuph]

The only C trombones that I know of are specific purpose ("melody", just as with the C "melody" saxes) early 20th Century "preacher" models (often - with a whole-step rotor, much like the CSO York), and limited production (romance language countries, typically) C valve trombones. The overwhelming majority of alto trombones are Eb instruments. Only (still today: very limited production, in spite of Chinese production) "contrabass" trombones are F instruments - surely partially due to virtually no one being able to reach 7th position on an Eb version.

C valve trombones are finding a strong niche in Mexican banda music, and in some Afro-Caribbean genres lately...to the point that many Sam Ash stores carry a couple of Jean Baptiste models in Florida.