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Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:44 pm
by jperry1466
I've had this Mack Brass 410 CC for 5 months now, practicing 1.5-2 hours per day. Some said "let us know how it goes", so here it is. By and large, you guys were right; it's not the horn, it's me. Having sold my Getzen Meinl Weston in the early 1980s, it was a long layoff on the CC while I was teaching HS band. The E above the staff has been a real problem, but it finally has started responding (if my chops are fresh). I had occasion to play a silver-plated twin to my Mack and got the same results. At TubaChristmas a graduating college player was interested in Mack and wanted to play my horn and popped the E out with no problem. My range (up to G) and my technique otherwise seem to be back. The biggest problem is I don't have the air capacity any more. I do well to get 8 beats on one breath at mm=80, so I have to take far too frequent breaths to maintain my sound. In the last 19 years, I've had a kidney transplant, knee replacement, and this past year shoulder surgery and then 12" of colon removed with a lot of abdominal muscle cut up, so I'm pretty out of shape as well. What irks me is playing in a community band next to a nice young band director who plays like I used to. My brain knows what to do; at 67 my body isn't cooperating. Gonna keep at it, though, go as far as I can, and have fun. Getting old ain't for sissies. Thanks for all the help and tips. You guys are a great source of information.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:23 am
by Tim Jackson
Well… the lungs ain't coming back cause with age comes loss of elasticity of the lungs. You can certainly learn and work toward making use of what you got. IMHO range has more to do with depth of understanding of the embouchure and can be learned/discovered. 5 months is a good start but I'll bet if you keep up that practice regiment in another year you'll be more excited about the playing. Study everything written on the art of brass playing. (not just the art of tuba playing) If you want more range - find someone that really has it together and study with them. Discovering new techniques and finding good coaching will really move things forward. Ain't nothin like makin a comeback! Happy New Year!!

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:19 pm
by Donn
If you can't be young, be crafty.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:39 pm
by iiipopes
Donn wrote:If you can't be young, be crafty.
Indeed. "Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance." - David Mamet

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:50 pm
by WC8KCY
Thanks for the update, and best wishes for a Good New Year...

Having had a stroke about 12 years ago that left me unable to play brasswinds for a couple of years, I know where you're coming from. I still have air supply and support issues, and I've found relief by moving to more air-efficient tubas and mouthpieces to make the most of the air I still have.

It helps me to remind myself that with each passing year, I learn more about music and gain a clearer understanding of what the composers and arrangers intended when I'm studying the chart in front of me. I'm playing far more tastefully and musically at age 49 than when I was at University in my 20s.

So what if I can't blow like The Big Bad Wolf anymore--I'm the best musician that I've ever been. I bet you're now making the best music of your life, too, even if it's more of a physical struggle than it used to be. Give yourself a pat on the back for that.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:12 pm
by GC
Condensed version: make up for physical shortcomings with experience, musicianship, and taste, all to the best of your ability.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:00 pm
by Three Valves
GC wrote:Condensed version: make up for physical shortcomings with experience, musicianship, and taste, all to the best of your ability.
I always used enthusiasm and volume!! :tuba:

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:59 pm
by jperry1466
Thanks for all the great replies, advice, and words of encouragement. After doing some research, I find that lungs indeed lose elasticity with age, and my already thin lips will get thinner, too. As a teacher, I always had to figure out work-arounds, and I will this time as well. I also want to find a good teacher who will take on an old guy.

WC8KCY, your story is especially inspiring, overcoming a stroke, and at 49 you're 18 years younger than I and possessing a great outlook. You're right; 44 years after the degree and after a 33 year teaching stint, I am a much better musician and more knowledgeable about all instruments than I was back when. Thank you for sharing.

All that said, I am taking your advice about moving to more air efficient tools. Someday I will go to a 3/4 tuba, but for now I have been experimenting with mouthpieces. The Standard Conn Helleberg seems to need a bit less air than that the ones I have been using, and I recently got a Lexan Kellyberg for TubaChristmas and found it is even more air efficient "tighter" as ken k said in another thread.

My question: Does anyone know if the dimensions of the silver plated Kellyberg is identical to the lexan model? And does anyone have other suggestions for an air efficient mouthpiece that doesn't get a terribly "bright" sound? I prefer something with a 32-32.6 inner diameter and a flat rim. Thanks again!

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:51 am
by WC8KCY
jperry1466 wrote:My question: Does anyone know if the dimensions of the silver plated Kellyberg is identical to the lexan model? And does anyone have other suggestions for an air efficient mouthpiece that doesn't get a terribly "bright" sound? I prefer something with a 32-32.6 inner diameter and a flat rim. Thanks again!
Thank you so much for the kind words, jperry...

In search of the ultimate air-efficient mouthpiece myself, I am putting a newly-acquired PT-31 through an evaluation right now. It is described as folows: 32.5mm cup diameter, medium funnel-shaped cup, 7.5mm diameter rim described as "fairly sharp inner edge, moderately round rim", and a 7.4mm throat.

Looking at the PT-31 and Kellyberg side by side, the contact point and width on the embouchure is very similar to the Kellyberg. The inner rim appears more rounded, but in practice has a bit more bite than the Kellyberg, ensuring precise attacks. There is a bit more of a bowl shape to the cup versus the Kellyberg and it is not quite so deep. So far, I am delighted with the air efficiency. On my Schiller 3/4 BB-flat it produces a darkish tone, but with enough overtones to prevent that godawful "peashooter tuba" sound you might associate with, say, a YBB-103 played through a poorly-made Bach 18.

The low register on this particular tuba is a lost cause, but I did try the PT-31 on my Martin E-flat sousaphone and found that the false tones and pedal tones spoke with real authority.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:13 am
by Donn
jperry1466 wrote:My question: Does anyone know if the dimensions of the silver plated Kellyberg is identical to the lexan model? And does anyone have other suggestions for an air efficient mouthpiece that doesn't get a terribly "bright" sound? I prefer something with a 32-32.6 inner diameter and a flat rim. Thanks again!
Current production, it sure sounds like the Kelly Helleberg is for you. If you aren't in a hurry, Sidey Hellebergs come up occasionally used, and meanwhile you have your Lexan Kellyberg. That's about it, for stainless steel. The published diameter specs are a little larger, but you can't be too sure about that - mouthpiece cups don't really have a specific diameter, because of their curved interior profile, and differences in how you decide to measure can easily account for 1/2 a mm.

In brass, if you want to try something with an extra nice rim, a bit flat but slightly dished, it won't cost you much to try a Faxx fhb. I have one of those, and I suppose it may a bit brighter than my Lexan Kellyberg, or it's just clearer. The darkest, smoothest sound is my Conn 1, and James R. New C-1 copy thereof, but it has a very rounded rim. Very near it is my Schilke 67, 32.4mm, typical Schilke rim. These two are substantially darker/smoother than anything else I have.

No idea if they are they air-efficient - I am not very aware of this aspect of playing, I'm one of those slobs who breaths in when I need to. I've noticed that for example a Marcinkiewicz H1 takes noticeably more breath control on the part of the player, maybe it has less resistance or something - but as much as you practice, I'm sure that isn't such a big issue for you.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:21 am
by jperry1466
Thanks, WC8KCY, Donn, and Doc, for your thoughtful answers and good advice. When I get to the point of making a decision, I think I need to sit down and give Bloke a call (if there are enough hours in his day to answer my million questions) and see what might be the best combo for my needs. I realize everything is a trade-off and compromise will be the rule, so I'm wondering how to combine air efficiency with the dark, mellow sound I want to keep. With what I know and have at hand at the moment, the Kellyberg, whether stainless or plated, is pulling strongest at me. I'm still considering the addition of a 3/4 BBb tuba to fit various needs.

The PT-31 sounded very interesting, WC8KCY, so I am looking at it. But I realized I have an old old (1926 Buescher?) mouthpiece that I want restored that is almost identical to your description and specs of the PT-31. It is a bell-shaped (outer shape) with apparently nickel-silver plating that I need to talk to Dan Oberloh about restoring. It is pretty air efficient and gets the sweetest sound of any mouthpiece I have. Trouble is, it is a little beat up. I'm also trying to figure out what I want to do about my 1906 York EEb tuba that would make a great restoration project for me or someone else. Right now, it takes up space in my office. But that's for another thread.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:14 am
by WC8KCY
jperry: I think I would give bloke a call, too, if I were you.

I did an extended test-play of the PT-31 yesterday afternoon and it revealed some serious intonation and playability issues--to be specific, the slots are very "loose" on this MP; pitches simply don't lock in, it's easy to blow flat, and maddeningly easy to hit incorrect partials in the upper register. It does sound gorgeous, and is in fact very sparing with air, but is otherwise treacherous. It remains to be seen if more face time will solve these riddles.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:49 pm
by jperry1466
Thanks, hrender and elephant. That information is what I was looking for. I have a Kellyberg plastic as well as a Standard Conn Helleberg, and the Kellyberg seems to take slightly less air and has slightly better response. Unfortunately, it also sounds like I am blowing into plastic. But this may all just be in my mind.

On the other hand, all this practicing is getting my range and technique back. Just wish I had lungs.

Re: Probably boring follow up to "New tuba-old guy" question

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:37 pm
by jperry1466
Thank you, bloke. That's very informative and reassuring. I've had friends accuse me of looking for the "magic bullet", but I'm always looking for the combination of rim, cup, and backbore that feels most comfortable and allows me to have confidence in knowing what the piece will do. I've always thought there had to be a reason for all the different sizes and shapes of components and am going to have to give you a call and go over my concerns and needs. Just need to formulate all my questions. I've always thought the mouthpiece must fit the horn as well as the player. Right now, I'm considering moving to something in a 3/4 size horn because of lung capacity. I don't like to give up a big sound, but feel that compromise may just be in my best interest. All this just to play 6-8 performances a year in a community group.