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High prices!!!

Postby lost » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:27 pm

Few sales last year of yorks and martins reaching high, and dare I say IMHO, silly prices due to a small handful of people paying for them. Any particular reason? Are they that good you fellow owners? Is this a new trend in the used tuba market?
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:41 pm

If the prices are that silly, sir, you might consider selling some.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby lost » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 pm

I did last year for a paltry sum for what they are being listed for now. Kinda kicking myself!
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:05 pm

yeah...
Several years ago, I sold a Rudy Meinl "3/4" C tuba to another player (who saw my ad here, actually) for a few thousand bucks. I sold it for about what a run-of-the-mill good-condition 5-valve 186 sold for at the time (pre-Bush/0bama currency devaluations...aka "stimuli"), and considered that "fair", because a 186 is so much easier to play in tune.
Well, they bought it to immediately flip it for a couple thousand more dollars, so...

bloke "Rarely do even the most savvy investors ever manage to sell at the absolute top."
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby roweenie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:10 am

Interesting - I thought for sure that the flood of Chinese copies on the market would drive down the prices.

Maybe "shiny and new" isn't the beginning and end, after all.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 am

roweenie wrote:Interesting - I thought for sure that the flood of Chinese copies on the market would drive down the prices.

Maybe "shiny and new" isn't the beginning and end, after all.


No one has copied a Martin 6/4 BBb...the taper of which is extremely odd, YET, the tuning of which is better than just about any other.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby roweenie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:43 am

True, the Martin 6/4 tubas have not been copied - I guess I was speaking specifically to the York-o-phones.

To my certain knowledge, the York tubas I own give me no intonation troubles.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 am

roweenie wrote:True, the Martin 6/4 tubas have not been copied - I guess I was speaking specifically to the York-o-phones.

To my certain knowledge, the York tubas I own give me no intonation troubles.


The giant C tubas (whether rare York, copies, or not-similar-enough-to-be-considered-copies) - in my experience - all offer very similar intonation hurdles...whether 3-loop or 4-loop...with a couple of models (different bugle taper) offering different-but-equally-challenging intonation.

It's difficult to find a York "Monster" Eb that behaves much better than all the other makes' oversize Eb tubas from the 1920's. The reason that I souped up one-in-particular back in the 1990's (recently sold it a second time) was because that particular York "Monster" Eb tuba's intonation tendencies behaved themselves much more nicely than the typical ones...

...but you're speaking to the Bb tubas, and yeah - they are (whether 4/4 or 5/4) easier to steer. I've never played a J. W. York & Son 6/4 Bb, so I cannot speak to those.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby roweenie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:54 am

bloke wrote:....but you're speaking to the Bb tubas, and yeah - they are (whether 4/4 or 5/4) easier to steer. I've never played a J. W. York & Son 6/4 Bb, so I cannot speak to those.


This is true.

As to the 6/4 ones (of which, happily, I have some experience), the truncated ones (aka CC) cannot hold a candle to the unmolested ones (aka BBb).....

(I think Pop Johnson sheds an angelic tear every time one goes under the hacksaw).
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:01 am

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:....but you're speaking to the Bb tubas, and yeah - they are (whether 4/4 or 5/4) easier to steer. I've never played a J. W. York & Son 6/4 Bb, so I cannot speak to those.


This is true.

As to the 6/4 ones (of which, happily, I have some experience), the truncated ones (aka CC) cannot hold a candle to the unmolested ones (aka BBb).....

(I think Pop Johnson sheds an angelic tear every time one goes under the hacksaw).


This is about as close as I've come to one of the York 6/4 Bb's...though (well...) there are some Holton 345 Bb's here right now...

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Re: High prices!!!

Postby roweenie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:10 am

bloke wrote:This is about as close as I've come to one of the York 6/4 Bb's...


Well, hopefully someday we can remedy that situation, for at least a short period of time, say an afternoon....

though (well...) there are some Holton 345 Bb's here right now....


Apples and oranges, IMHO...

(And I LOVE that picture!)
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:22 am

roweenie wrote:
bloke wrote:This is about as close as I've come to one of the York 6/4 Bb's...


Well, hopefully someday we can remedy that situation, for at least a short period of time, say an afternoon....

though (well...) there are some Holton 345 Bb's here right now....


Apples and oranges, IMHO...

(And I LOVE that picture!)


yeah...
Holton copied Jake's C (in order to run that CSO-principal-brass-play-Holton ad). Stretching a C to Bb is no way to design a tuba, just as chopping a Bb to C is no way to design a tuba.
That having been said, I strongly suspect that Holton utilized old Bb molds (as Holton had already offered a 6/4 Bb) to "quasi-copy" Jake's C tuba, which easily explains why Holton 345 C tubas don't play much like the York 6/4 C tubas.

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Re: High prices!!!

Postby roweenie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:36 am

I've always held a wacky theory that some of the heirloom manufacturers (not necessarily in this particular case) used their obsolete-high-pitch-top-action mandrels, especially from models with the MTS before the valveset, to build their side-action CC tubas...

It seems logical to me, in any event, as those are the horns with the shortest bugles, therefore ones that are "easiest" to convert (I don't envision H.N. White, for example, in the 1930s, investing in several sets of costly mandrels, just to make the very occasional CC tuba).
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:59 pm

roweenie wrote:I've always held a wacky theory that some of the heirloom manufacturers (not necessarily in this particular case) used their obsolete-high-pitch-top-action mandrels, especially from models with the MTS before the valveset, to build their side-action CC tubas...

It seems logical to me, in any event, as those are the horns with the shortest bugles, therefore ones that are "easiest" to convert (I don't envision H.N. White, for example, in the 1930s, investing in several sets of costly mandrels, just to make the very occasional CC tuba).


You could easily sell that theory to me - with-or-without side-by-side instruments/bows to compare.

1. The rare early 20th Century American-made C tubas weren't know for their amazing intonation.
2. Why start from scratch (adjusted for inflation, possibly a $50K to $100K design endeavor) to satisfy the request of one nutty nickel-and-dime "simfunny" musician?
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby Tim Jackson » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:00 pm

HIGH PRICES!!!!!!!!!!
OK... here's a high price original York 6/4 BBb. I love this horn every time I take it out. Amazing how many orchestral pieces can be managed with 3 valves. Sometimes I wonder if one of the reasons this horn plays so nicely is because it only has 3 valves. I can't remember when I won the ebay bid... maybe 12-15 years ago. The biding war went over 7K - I think. Some day I will sell this horn, but maybe not just yet (may be old but I ain't dead) I can say that it would take around 10K for me to start thinking about it. You say - NO WAY! well, that is what it's worth to me today. This is just about mint - no buffing - no repairs, the satin finish is still crisp. It is a joy to play and the intonation is very good. The horn plays at A440 without the tuning donut engaged. This is a very rare find and it certainly would be considered an example of why Donatelli requested the large 6/4 CC from York. So, even though most folks can't imagine paying top dollar for a 3 banger old York... it all depends on the value of an item to the seller and what the buyer is willing to pay. I have NEVER regretted spending 7 + on this horn years ago. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... and that is the very reason things are priced accordingly.

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Re: High prices!!!

Postby lost » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:38 pm

Maybe what we are seeing is "I don't really wanna sell it" pricing on these horns and people are actually biting.

Original yorks I can see going crazy tim, cause i would sell mine for a crazy price. Martin's are less rare compared to York.

3 grand for a 3 banger upright recording martin? Wuhhhhhh? It's confusing. But i guess timing is everything.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby bloke » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:12 am

Bush and 0bama both pushed for and got defacto currency devaluation, which - embracing Keynesian economic theory - they believed would "stimulate" the economy. I could discuss this topic for many paragraphs, but this isn't the topic...

...The topic is "high prices"

What I'm suggesting is this:

People - in general - don't have much more money/fiat currency than they did before those two presidents pushed for currency devaluation, but - just as with any currency devaluations - things of limited supply and with a level of demand higher than their supply will see their pricing levels go up to the same actual cost (adjusted for inflation) as they were prior to any currency devaluations. This may take some time, and - additionally - some people (not taking into consideration what has happened to money) may continue price their limited-supply items ~as if~ the money is still worth what it was previously worth - with buyers of those items getting "bargains". Obviously, with ~most~ people really not having much more money than prior to currency devaluation, typical people with typical monetary resources (regarding multi-thousand-dollars items, in particular) are often going to be priced out of the (new price levels) market of limited supply items, but if there are enough interested potential buyers with funding (as there often seem to be), the new price levels will be met, as (again) the supplies are limited...so "limited supply" and "limited numbers of capable/interested buyers" meet.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby Oldschooltuba » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:35 am

My York, a 6/4 CC Rusk cut from BBb might come on the market soon. Great playing instrument, but needs to be in the hands for someone that can use it more than me and community band. It will not be cheep.
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Re: High prices!!!

Postby edsel585960 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:28 pm

lost wrote:Maybe what we are seeing is "I don't really wanna sell it" pricing on these horns and people are actually biting.

Original yorks I can see going crazy tim, cause i would sell mine for a crazy price. Martin's are less rare compared to York.

3 grand for a 3 banger upright recording martin? Wuhhhhhh? It's confusing. But i guess timing is everything.
lol. Yeah, if anyone offered 3000 for my 3 valve Martin recording bell I'd have to seriously consider it.
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