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Question about B&S leadpipe sizes

Postby Jim Andrus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:29 pm

Hi tubenetters,

I’ve got a question about the modern day production PT-10 leadpipe size. Older models of these tubas came with two interchangeable lead pipes, one smaller than the other. On a PT-10 that one would buy from the factory today the leadpipe is generally soldered, so did they keep the bigger leadpipe or the smaller one? And if anyone knows, what we’re the sizes of the two interchangeable lead pipes on the older models?

Thanks for the clarification!
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Re: Question about B&S leadpipe sizes

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:00 am

That's an interesting question.

Here sits one that is a very early "PERANTUCCI MODEL" (predating the "PT" terminology) F tuba mouthpipe.
The small end of this early "PERANTUCCI" mouthpipe tube is obviously larger than the small end of my "SYMPHONIE MODELL" mouthpipe tube.

BOTH mouthpipe tubes (this unattached "PERANTUCCI" one, as well as my never unattached "Symphonie" one) are from the GDR era.

I've measured the o.d. of this "PERANTUCCI MODEL" tube and of my "Symphonie Modell" - just past the nickel silver overpart - and posted a picture below.

:arrow: MY own GUESS ("guess" dictating ignorance) is that the pair of mouthpipes offered early were this way:
- one that exited the overpart larger (as seen in the "PERANTUCCI" picture)
- one that exited the overpart as small as the original "Symphonie Modell" tube

Obviously (as the "PERANTUCCI MODEL" increased the bore size of the (first-encountered) 5th valve from the ("Symphonie") 17mm to 19mm, both of the two mouthpipe tubes (offered with the early "PERANTUCCI MODEL" B&S F tubas) had to end up with a 19mm i.d. (approximately a 20mm o.d.) at their large ends.

Image

Image
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"B & S" F-Tuba History / Leadpipes

Postby Robert Tucci » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:04 am

Jim,

Thanks for the posting, also for the photos. The following history about the world´s most popular rotary-valve F-tubas was published from time to time, most recently after the passing of Herbert Fischbach. Herbert Fischbach was a fine gentleman, leading of the concert band in his home town of Klingenthal and production manager at "B & S".

50 Years of Award Winning Excellence"

This unique family of F-tubas goes back to the early Sixties, when Heinz Forker, tubist of the Dresden Staatskapelle and Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, along with other professional players from Leipzig and Berlin, approached Herbert Fischbach and his team of master instrument makers at "B & S" in order to develop a new F‑tuba, for use in symphonic performance.

In order to achieve the desired tonal qualities and excellent response and scale, it was determined that the instrument should be big and efficient. This resulted in the unique design of all "B & S" tubas: a short leadpipe, split‑level fifth or sixth valve, progressive bore valve section and tapered main tuning slide leading to a large body bore and wide bell.

With the introduction of the "Modell Symphonie" in 1964, new standards of sound, intonation, response and acoustical integrity were set. The "B & S" Modell Symphonie, available with five or six valves, gained popularity rapidly. The "Tuba Revolution" of the sixties resulted in more and more musicians looking for a truly fine vehicle for their musical endeavours. "B & S" F-tubas quickly established themselves at the top of the tuba world. The instrument became a flagship for „B & S“.

In 1981, further development of the "Modell Symphonie" began under the direction of Robert Tucci. While the original valve bore at 17 to 21mm was deemed fine, instruments with both 18 to 21mm and 19 to 21mm valve sections were built. The larger bore combinations worked well from the outset. Thereupon new leadpipes were developed to optimize intonation, response and in particular tonal depth and colour.

This new "Perantucci" models PT-10 and PT-12, with five or six rotary valves and a strong and rich sound, literally redefined the modern F-tuba. These became the most popular large rotary valve F-tubas in history, with hundreds in use world wide.

The reorganization by Gerhard Meinl of all "B & S" manufacturing facilities brought refinement into all areas of production. Finest materials and modern technology resulted in an unprecedented high level of consistency, durability and most important of all, musical characteristics. The "B & S" F-tuba family achieved even greater success. This has been copied time and again but never equalled.

In 1996, two new models were added, the "B & S" Perantucci PT-15 with five and the PT-16 with six rotary valves These build on the "B & S" Perantucci philosophy, utilizing even shorter leadpipes and larger bells for greater volume while retaining the scintillating sound for which all "B & S" Perantucci F‑tubas are famous.

This approach went on to compliment the standard bore "B & S" Perantucci models PT-8 and PT-9, with five and six rotary valves. With this development based closely on the original philosophy of the "Modell Symphonie, the "B & S" F-tuba has travelled a full circle; a truly unique design with musical and acoustical integrity that supports all areas of musical endeavour.

To commemorate "40 Years of Award Winning Excellence" a Limited Edition Anniversary Model series of instruments were built in time for the International Tuba Competition in Markneukirchen, May 2004. There was a special ceremony held at the Music Instrument Museum in Markneukirchen at which Herbert Fischbach, the instrument maker most directly responsible for the development of the basic model in the early sixties, as well as musical artists associated with this instrument were present.

The "Anniverary Model" F-tubas proved to be a rousing success, due not only to the fine craftsmanship common to all "B & S" Perantucci instruments but simply because the sound and resonant have a unique richness and character.

More than fifty years of resounding success prove that indeed, „Legends live Longer.“. End of published remarks.

My work at "B & S" began in 1983. Beginning with the "Modell Symphonie", valves 17-21mm, we had two variations built, one with 18-21mm, the other with 19-21mm valves. The large-bore instrument was chosen for further development. We worked with two interchangable leadpipes. Later and together with Herbert Fischbach, we worked out another leadpipe based on the large one but with some significant changes. That became the standard leadpipe for all "B & S" large-bore F-tubas. In recent years refinement of the instrument has continued, most unseen to the inexperienced eye. Together with the right mouthpieces (Three guesses ... ??), the instruments perform in a superb manner, produce a full and unique sound and play in tune.

The original very large leadpipe was refered to as No. 3, the one we finalized and now standard is refered to as No. 33.

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Re: Question about B&S leadpipe sizes

Postby Jim Andrus » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:23 am

Thank you Mr. Tucci for the informative history lesson and the information about the updated leadpipe! And thank you Bloke for the comparison of those leadpipes. All very interesting and informative. I appreciate the answers to my post!

Best,

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Re: Question about B&S leadpipe sizes

Postby bloke » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:39 am

It was good to have someone's question prompt me to do something that I had meant to do a long time ago. :D

' interested in nonsense? https://imgur.com/a/6Plew9j
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Re: "B & S" F-Tuba History / Leadpipes

Postby jonesbrass » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Robert Tucci wrote:Jim,

Thanks for the posting, also for the photos. The following history about the world´s most popular rotary-valve F-tubas was published from time to time, most recently after the passing of Herbert Fischbach. Herbert Fischbach was a fine gentleman, leading of the concert band in his home town of Klingenthal and production manager at "B & S".

50 Years of Award Winning Excellence"

This unique family of F-tubas goes back to the early Sixties, when Heinz Forker, tubist of the Dresden Staatskapelle and Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, along with other professional players from Leipzig and Berlin, approached Herbert Fischbach and his team of master instrument makers at "B & S" in order to develop a new F‑tuba, for use in symphonic performance.

In order to achieve the desired tonal qualities and excellent response and scale, it was determined that the instrument should be big and efficient. This resulted in the unique design of all "B & S" tubas: a short leadpipe, split‑level fifth or sixth valve, progressive bore valve section and tapered main tuning slide leading to a large body bore and wide bell.

With the introduction of the "Modell Symphonie" in 1964, new standards of sound, intonation, response and acoustical integrity were set. The "B & S" Modell Symphonie, available with five or six valves, gained popularity rapidly. The "Tuba Revolution" of the sixties resulted in more and more musicians looking for a truly fine vehicle for their musical endeavours. "B & S" F-tubas quickly established themselves at the top of the tuba world. The instrument became a flagship for „B & S“.

In 1981, further development of the "Modell Symphonie" began under the direction of Robert Tucci. While the original valve bore at 17 to 21mm was deemed fine, instruments with both 18 to 21mm and 19 to 21mm valve sections were built. The larger bore combinations worked well from the outset. Thereupon new leadpipes were developed to optimize intonation, response and in particular tonal depth and colour.

This new "Perantucci" models PT-10 and PT-12, with five or six rotary valves and a strong and rich sound, literally redefined the modern F-tuba. These became the most popular large rotary valve F-tubas in history, with hundreds in use world wide.

The reorganization by Gerhard Meinl of all "B & S" manufacturing facilities brought refinement into all areas of production. Finest materials and modern technology resulted in an unprecedented high level of consistency, durability and most important of all, musical characteristics. The "B & S" F-tuba family achieved even greater success. This has been copied time and again but never equalled.

In 1996, two new models were added, the "B & S" Perantucci PT-15 with five and the PT-16 with six rotary valves These build on the "B & S" Perantucci philosophy, utilizing even shorter leadpipes and larger bells for greater volume while retaining the scintillating sound for which all "B & S" Perantucci F‑tubas are famous.

This approach went on to compliment the standard bore "B & S" Perantucci models PT-8 and PT-9, with five and six rotary valves. With this development based closely on the original philosophy of the "Modell Symphonie, the "B & S" F-tuba has travelled a full circle; a truly unique design with musical and acoustical integrity that supports all areas of musical endeavour.

To commemorate "40 Years of Award Winning Excellence" a Limited Edition Anniversary Model series of instruments were built in time for the International Tuba Competition in Markneukirchen, May 2004. There was a special ceremony held at the Music Instrument Museum in Markneukirchen at which Herbert Fischbach, the instrument maker most directly responsible for the development of the basic model in the early sixties, as well as musical artists associated with this instrument were present.

The "Anniverary Model" F-tubas proved to be a rousing success, due not only to the fine craftsmanship common to all "B & S" Perantucci instruments but simply because the sound and resonant have a unique richness and character.

More than fifty years of resounding success prove that indeed, „Legends live Longer.“. End of published remarks.

My work at "B & S" began in 1983. Beginning with the "Modell Symphonie", valves 17-21mm, we had two variations built, one with 18-21mm, the other with 19-21mm valves. The large-bore instrument was chosen for further development. We worked with two interchangable leadpipes. Later and together with Herbert Fischbach, we worked out another leadpipe based on the large one but with some significant changes. That became the standard leadpipe for all "B & S" large-bore F-tubas. In recent years refinement of the instrument has continued, most unseen to the inexperienced eye. Together with the right mouthpieces (Three guesses ... ??), the instruments perform in a superb manner, produce a full and unique sound and play in tune.

The original very large leadpipe was refered to as No. 3, the one we finalized and now standard is refered to as No. 33.

Bob Tucci

Thank you, Mr. Tucci. A great explanation on the history and development of the B & S F-tubas!
Willson 3050S CC, Willson 3200S F, B&S PT-10, 1922 Conn 86I, FOR SALE: Cerveny CFB-653-5IMX
Gone but not forgotten:
Cerveny 681, Musica-Steyr F, Miraphone 188, Melton 45, Conn 2J, B&M 5520S CC, Shires Bass Trombone
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Re: Question about B&S leadpipe sizes

Postby joh_tuba » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:34 am

bloke wrote:It was good to have someone's question prompt me to do something that I had meant to do a long time ago. :D

' interested in nonsense? https://imgur.com/a/6Plew9j



Any observations worth reporting?
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