Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by proam »

You could argue that those who played the prelim round were granted an extraordinary opportunity - if you had no experience or background at all, you could have shown up and defeated those who they knew already were acceptable candidates.

It is my understanding that there used to be much more of the “keep it in the family” type of arrangements for available jobs. You’d ask a professor or player to recommend someone, they’d give a name and this person would be hired on the reputation of the recommending player alone.

At least now you have a chance. Perhaps slim, but a chance nonetheless. Doesn’t make a no-win feel any better, though.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by TheTuba »

What I feel like we are glossing over is the fact that these people came of their own free will. They willingly spent their money on a venture that might not succeed. They took the chance. And they lost. But while they lost the audition, they went away with the opportunity of seeing how the process and the stress mingle together( as mentioned above). This job is not the only one in the whole world. There are many auditions taking place for tuba. So I feel like this is a tad bit overreacting, especially by someone who didn't take the audition(it would be understandable if someone who DID take it posted about it).
I would put a good signature here, but i dont have one, so this will make do.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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joshlee wrote:I feel inclined to comment on this since I am quite close with one of the members of the low brass section in this orchestra. While the outcome of this audition may look suspicious I can assure you there was absolutely no malfeasance on the part of the committee during this audition. It is true that nobody was passed from the semifinal round to the final round, but that was not the desired outcome. From what I understand the lists were fair and people were given ample opportunity to play their best. It’s not the committees fault if that did not happen. The person that won was indeed alone in the final round, but only because there were others invited that did not show up. To cause speculation about the outcome of this audition is not fair to the people involved or the winner. My friend in this orchestra is one of the most ethical, trustworthy, and fair musicians I have ever met. Anyone who has doubts about the outcome of this audition can drop the speculation and give the winner of this audition his due credit for the outcome.
The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault. If a person doesn't show, they should not be extended an offer, no different than in any other profession extending interviews for a position, and the hiring authority extending the offer of the position better be able to show legitimate screening documentation and interview/audition results in order to properly justify the hire. Otherwise, it is all a sham.

But don't take my word for it: I worked for years for my uncle, an expert labor lawyer in the area where I live. If the local chapter of the Musicians' Union had any backbone, they would be filing an unfair labor charge with the NLRB at this point.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by hup_d_dup »

Dan Bradley wrote:Haters, call the waambulance. Most every musician I know agrees on one fact: tuba players are generally assholes.

This is NOT a fact, and I believe that most musicians would disagree with your statement.

Dan Bradley wrote:I am not a successful player, but I'm certainly an asshole.
On this point, I defer.

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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by iiipopes »

hup_d_dup wrote:
Dan Bradley wrote:Haters, call the waambulance. Most every musician I know agrees on one fact: tuba players are generally assholes.

This is NOT a fact, and I believe that most musicians would disagree with your statement.

Dan Bradley wrote:I am not a successful player, but I'm certainly an asshole.
On this point, I defer.

Hup
Tuba players, in general, are easy to get along with compared to other musicians, as these two jokes illustrate:

"What does one trumpet player say to another when they meet?" "Hi, I'm better than you."
"What does one tuba player say to another when they meet?" "Hi. Nice to meet you. Can I get the first round?"

I don't know of any other instrument gatherings similar to our TubaChristmas, where we celebrate each other and our preferred instruments.

No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. Just don't provoke us, because we do know how to wield heavy metal. (in more ways than one.)
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Monstertuba »

iiipopes wrote: The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault.
First of all congrats to Seth Cook! Who has sat through an audition process for years of playing with the Washington National Opera, and will continue to do so until he gets tenure. It is incredibly naive to not realize that years of playing with an orchestra will show every flaw both artistic and professional/social a player has. FAR more than an 8 minute preliminary round.

I tell my children sweeping the floor is not the job, the job, is getting the floor clean. For performing organizations holding an audition to fill a vacancy is NOT the job, the job, is hiring an outstanding musician AND colleague to work with for the next 30 years. Seth had a far more significant 'preliminary round' than any one else. He then nailed a screened final round and won the position. None of that means someone else couldn't have played incredibly well, advanced to the finals, and won the position instead. That's why they held the audition. To see if someone could impress them more than the guy they'd been playing with. No one did. Completely fair. Congrats again to Seth!
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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Monstertuba wrote:
iiipopes wrote: The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault.
First of all congrats to Seth Cook! Who has sat through an audition process for years of playing with the Washington National Opera, and will continue to do so until he gets tenure. It is incredibly naive to not realize that years of playing with an orchestra will show every flaw both artistic and professional/social a player has. FAR more than an 8 minute preliminary round.

I tell my children sweeping the floor is not the job, the job, is getting the floor clean. For performing organizations holding an audition to fill a vacancy is NOT the job, the job, is hiring an outstanding musician AND colleague to work with for the next 30 years. Seth had a far more significant 'preliminary round' than any one else. He then nailed a screened final round and won the position. None of that means someone else couldn't have played incredibly well, advanced to the finals, and won the position instead. That's why they held the audition. To see if someone could impress them more than the guy they'd been playing with. No one did. Completely fair. Congrats again to Seth!
So...it gets worse. They have auditions to try to kick out the guy who already has the job. That is demeaning, and makes the reputation of the organization even worse.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Mark »

iiipopes wrote:Tuba players, in general, are easy to get along with compared to other musicians, ...

No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. ...
I thought this way until I read this thread.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Aubrey Foard »

iiipopes wrote: The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault. If a person doesn't show, they should not be extended an offer, no different than in any other profession extending interviews for a position, and the hiring authority extending the offer of the position better be able to show legitimate screening documentation and interview/audition results in order to properly justify the hire. Otherwise, it is all a sham.

But don't take my word for it: I worked for years for my uncle, an expert labor lawyer in the area where I live. If the local chapter of the Musicians' Union had any backbone, they would be filing an unfair labor charge with the NLRB at this point.
Here is another very problematic argument. Regarding auto-advancing candidates, most orchestras have their own policy on auto-advancing enshrined in their collective bargaining agreement, which was negotiated with union representation. If the national AFM took issue with this, it wouldn't be so prevalent in both full and part-time orchestras.

Second, unless you have some evidence of wrongdoing, it's just wasted energy. The committee has pages and pages of notes regarding their decisions in both prelims and semi-finals. They put the winner through a rigorous audition process in the final round with dozens of pages of notes to back up their reasoning.

If you somehow still feel this is unfair: presuming you are a dues-paying AFM member, you could complain to the national - but, without any evidence of wrongdoing, that won't get you anywhere.

Congrats to Seth, an incredible tubist who I have known for 18 years. He has been in multiple final rounds with me after having worked his way up from prelims. I couldn't be happier for him.

OP and others can claim that they are not questioning the merit of the winner of an audition when they call into question (again, without evidence) the audition process - but, in the minds of some, that will always occur. Again, I would suggest that if you want change to happen: research the topic, talk to experts, write a paper for peer review, and present it at a conference.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by jr2262euph »

Your comments have all been excellent.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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“To me, you are all equally worthless...”
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Wayne Rice »

Why didn't the other invitees show up? Why only Seth? Because, presumably, they knew that Seth had the inside track because of his time with the orchestra.

If you know going in that you have very little chance of winning because there is a predisposition to hire a fine player with a great record (if he didn't have one, he wouldn't have been invited back to play over a six-year period), then you audition at your own risk. (Let's not inquire into the fairness of who gets even a chance to sub with a great orchestra and how that comes about.)

If those taking the audition were unaware that it was not an actual competition but instead a race that could only be won if the favorite seriously stumbled, that is unfair because it lends false hope to those naively spending thousands of dollars to attend a job interview that is almost certainly not open. If an orchestra writes into their CBA that it can "invite" players to miss the preliminary rounds and then subsequently actually make those invitations, the invitations should be disclosed well in advance so that the unknowns can decide if they want to spend their money getting experience.

Under those circumstances, as my wife is fond of saying, you truly are a volunteer, not a victim.

Really, the music business is no different than most businesses. Most non-music jobs are not given by audition; they are won by people who know someone. It's just that in the performing arts, there is a great surplus of those who can actually do the job. As anyone knows who has worked with employees over a long period of time, just because you "win the job" doesn't mean that you were the best choice for the job. Orchestras, like other businesses, don't care who wins an audition on a particular day; they want the best person for the job over the long haul--which includes temperament, dependability and attitude, hence the practice of inviting those who have prior experience with the group.

That rationale does not make it right to call an audition "open" when it is not.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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Wayne Rice wrote:That rationale does not make it right to call an audition "open" when it is not.
My point exactly.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

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Mark wrote:
iiipopes wrote:Tuba players, in general, are easy to get along with compared to other musicians, ...
No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. ...
I thought this way until I read this thread.
You unfairly did not quote my closing comment of "No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. Just don't provoke us, because we do know how to wield heavy metal. (in more ways than one.)" Now I am going to be an asshole to you because you did not quote my entire comments. Go sod off for not quoting me properly.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Mark »

iiipopes wrote:Go sod off for not quoting me properly.
QED
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Kunzer »

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread- thank you all for your participation.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by BopEuph »

I am not commenting on the original post in this thread, but I'll say this:

I've done plenty of theme park auditions here in Central Florida. No real cost of travel, so no real sacrifice made, save for the near-obsessive amount of practice and preparation it takes to land the gig.

Generally, the bandleader knows who they want. There are CBA's preventing them from outright hiring without some form of audition date, generally in a cattle-call format. There have been some surprises in the past, but the consensus is that if a player has been the on-call sub for long enough, they're likely going to get the gig. Even if the audition was "fair," the auditioning music is likely going to be the same material the band plays on a daily basis, and the main sub has an obvious advantage here, even if you spend a ton of time practicing with the two-month period given to prepare.

On one hand, I totally agree that musician deserves the gig. If I go out for that audition, I go knowing I'm not getting called, but am not worried if I have a conflict on that day. But I do still prepare as if they were taking everything into consideration, because you never know, and these are still current and future potential colleagues you're playing for. These auditions are not screened, because stage presence matters as much (if not more) than musicianship in these types of gigs, so you need to be seen. This happened with a tuba audition in late 2017, and I nailed the first round, and did admirably in the second round. I didn't win the audition, but I hear I did impress the players involved who didn't know I played tuba.

That being said, I'm still disappointed with a band (whose gig is mostly a sight-reading gig) to use horribly illegible music for the audition. I'm talking faded ink, and torn and crumpled pages, the paper being older than I am. The guy hired had been working with the band for over a year since the guy with the actual position was on sick leave for an extended time and then passed away, so the sub knew the book without even looking. I talked to the bandleader after the fact that the music was illegible, and he stressed that it was important to provide exactly what was in the book, since that's part of the gig. He was technically right, and wouldn't have been deemed unfair enough for the union to go after them. Plus, knowing I never had a shot, all it would do is bring the wrong attention to myself with the companies who do hire here, as well as the other musicians.

On a positive note, sometimes the theme parks have a concept for a show with no real idea of who they want to fill those roles with. I've won a number of auditions in that case; while thinking I wouldn't have been hired, I still would go out and do what it takes to get the gig. That includes everything from a perfect musical performance down to which pair of shoes can, even at the tiniest level, help my case. I lost one audition that had a callback on a different day, and a completely different audition committee, leaving me unprepared to make the same first impression. I was dropped immediately because I couldn't sing, which wasn't a requirement on that audition until that morning. Disappointed as I am at having lost that audition, I now know how to handle this same situation again in the future, which involves making sure I nail first impressions even at callbacks.

No audition is fair, which is why it takes some level of planning to help (fairly) improve your chances to win it. Even at the orchestral level, a perfect audition doesn't guarantee victory, but you still need it if you want to walk out of the audition room confidently. What else can you do to prove to the audition committee that they want to hire you?

I'm not saying these ideas would change the minds if there was already a decision, but if nobody advanced to the final round, some things could have been improved. Perhaps:

1.) A perfect performance
2.) Avoiding superfluous noises (loud valves, clanking slides while dumping water, etc.)
3.) Minimal down time in the audition (having a different horn for each excerpt, using water keys rather than removing slides, taking too long to set up/break down your gear, etc.)
4.) Acting as if the committee can see you. I don't know too much about orchestral auditions, but I imagine the proctor can give input as to your behavior or visual professionalism? Maybe that's not allowed, though, since it would be easy to influence the blind committee with the proctor's own possible prejudices.

I don't know anything about the details of this audition outside of this thread, but maybe there were some good players that had a couple of hiccups related to the above. On the flip side, perhaps the committee was unrealistically selective, dropping someone because they didn't like the tempo or a single flubbed note. Nobody has to tell me why I didn't win an audition--not that I always know the exact reason why, but I can always find something in an audition to improve.

And the auditions that I've won, generally the only thing I can nitpick are one or two flubbed notes. The auditions I lost usually have something more serious that needs work.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by doublebuzzing »

I once heard Tom Stevens tell the story of his audition for the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Tom had to audition a couple days before the "official" audition because of scheduling conflicts. Apparently Zubin Mehta was so enamored with Stevens' trumpet playing that he wanted him hired on the spot. The personnel manager said that they couldn't possibly do that because there were dozens of players coming to audition the coming Saturday. Mehta said, "OK, have the audition and then hire him." This underhanded stuff does happen surprisingly often.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by Wayne Rice »

Between 1884 and 1911, the U.S. Open tennis tournament allowed the winner of the prior year's tournament to play only in the championship round against the person who fought through the preliminary rounds, something called the "challenge round." The prior year's champion won the challenge round 20 times in 26 years, after which the system was abandoned. Wimbledon had the same system--until 1922.

It is easy for us to see the manifest unfairness of such a system today. Yet, we seem to be OK with it in auditions.

Life is unfair. Being a musician is as much a thing of chance as it is effort. Sure, everyone has to work to be a musician--no one wakes up one day, picks up the tuba and nails Fountains of Rome. But things like talent, family background, economic advantages, educational advantages, even physical strength, are gifted unevenly.

So, even when we attempt to make a proceeding fair, it is not fair because of the different gifts and disadvantages we each bring to it. Surely, Mozart is not Mozart without Leopold.

Does that mean we should not strive to make auditions as fair as possible? Or it is OK to have auditions that favor the prior "champion" or "champions"? (I mean no disrespect to Seth or anyone in his position. But it should be clear that to be in his position involves a great deal of luck along with his performance. The process of becoming a sub is often far murkier and more driven by chance than even the "open" audition process that is the subject of this thread.)

Put another way, should we allow orchestras to make artistic decisions to choose members that have nothing to do with a particular audition, but instead are based on preexisting relationships? If so, why bother with an audition? Because on the off chance that someone is so supremely talented and prepared and lucky that he or she will somehow break through? Like the six winners over 26 years at the U.S. Open?

At the very least, as I have previously advocated, the local should ensure that any audition that involves the advancement of individuals to the semi-finals or finals include notice of that fact. But really, those holding the auditions should be required to hire the real champion, not the winner of the challenge round.
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Re: Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

Post by iiipopes »

The first time I encountered what a ^^^^^^^^ auditions are was as a freshman in high school for the small performance ensemble, the "Pops Choir." Four baritone/bass positions. All four of last year's baritone/bass singers were returning. Even though I was the only one who had voice lessons for a couple of years, and knew my repertoire and theory inside out, and could sing better than at least two of the others, the same four got the positions. Now, the rest of the story: one of the seniors graduated at semester and went on to college, leaving a position open. I was selected without further auditions as a "fill-in." Then the next year's auditions came along. And yes, having had the "experience," I was selected along with the others who had not graduated, even after "auditions."

It is all ^^^^^^^^, and is one reason why music is my avocation, not my vocation. If you want me, call me. I refuse to cooperate in a corrupt "audition" system.
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