Washington National Opera - Kennedy Center shame on you.

[Kory101]

From talking to colleagues who have been on panels, the overwhelming fallacy they hear is that the panel is against them and don't want to pick anyone. The panel WANTS everyone to play their best because it's in the best interest of the organization.

I've heard stories of people who have been auto-advanced because they had been filling in for a particular opening for several years and didn't end up winning in the end.

Perhaps my "Olympic athlete" comparison was short-sighted. I've not taken many auditions in my career and therefore don't have the breadth of experience other members here have. I guess my personal opinion is that if an organization is holding and audition for a position, they should strive to be as transparent as possible during the process. I'm not suggesting that they are required to tell all auditioning candidates that several players have been auto-advanced, but I think IF this information was provided ahead of time, it would maybe make some people question whether or not they can be competitive with those people and re-consider spending perhaps thousands of dollars? I'm not sure...

There's no reason to believe that anything fishy happened here. If Mr. Cook was auto-advanced to the finals and he was the only one who showed up, the panel doesn't know with 100% certainty that it's him. They don't know out of the people they auto-advanced, HE was the one who showed up. Is it reasonable to assume that the person who had been filling in this position and whom they auto-advanced would show up? Sure, it is, but that's all you can say.

I think Aubrey's point "the process is the process" is exactly right. I certainly don't think it's a perfect system but it's how these organizations find people to fill those spots. And to Sasha's point, it seems that these processes can vary between orchestra. Something I didn't even consider.

[tmmcas1]

Some thoughts:

1) Congrats to Seth Cook. He's well deserving. Imagine the flip side to this discussion. He sat there for two days and the committee listened to every tuba player who wanted to play for them. The committee obviously had a clear level in mind that nobody else matched to advance to the finals. The pressure that Seth was then under to match or surpass the committee's expectations for a finalist is to be commended. Many times great players sub for great lengths of time in orchestras only to have that serve as a disadvantage when the committee gets to hear the field. They don't measure up. Kudos to Seth. I've known Seth for almost twenty years and this is a long time coming.

2) The New England Patriots have received 13 first round bye-weeks in the NFL playoffs since 2001. What does this have to do with tuba auditions? Nothing. Comparing sports to tuba auditions is only valid if you want it to be.

3) The word "fair" is misplaced. Orchestras only owe applicants what their collective agreement has spelled out. This is agreed upon by the orchestra and management. Auditions don't work like university large ensemble auditions. That's not the real world. If you are going to be bitter about swiping the credit card if you don't win, you probably shouldn't be going.

Again, congrats to the best person for the job. Bravo Seth!

[Aubrey Foard]

I am free to speak my mind. I don't have a horse in the race. I'll speak for all the musicians who live in fear of retribution.

Oh, I didn't realize they had elected you as their representative! Congrats!

[Dan Bradley]

Congrats to Seth Cook. I haven't talked to Seth in 20 years, but I saw him play the ring at the Washington National Opera in 2016, and it was breathtaking. He's an amazing player and even better guy.

Auditions have always been **** up.

Everyone needs to take a step back and chill. Haters, call the waambulance. Most every musician I know agrees on one fact: tuba players are generally assholes. I know that we might find it offensive, but it's true if you take a hard look at most successful tuba players. I am not a successful player, but I'm certainly an asshole. We try to act like trumpet players are the callous ego-maniacs, but from what I've seen, they are more supportive of one another than tubists are. All anyone needs to do is read the Tubenet going back over 20 years. ****, we got **** that are so full of themselves that they've posted 40,000 **** times. Seth Cook is a good guy who deserves the spot.

Congrats, Seth. I will be coming to more WNO performances soon.

Dan B.
Hades

[bort]

Most important thing I (indirectly) learned from this post -- Aubrey Foard is now the tubist with the Baltimore Symphony. I thought it was still Seth Horner (who is now in NC). Congrats to both of you!

IBTL!

[windshieldbug]

From talking to colleagues who have been on panels, the overwhelming fallacy they hear is that the panel is against them and don't want to pick anyone. The panel WANTS everyone to play their best because it's in the best interest of the organization.

I've heard stories of people who have been auto-advanced because they had been filling in for a particular opening for several years and didn't end up winning in the end.

This^

How could any candidate know who they're competing against in any round unless they see them come out before they go in?
The panel wants the best fit!
These circumstances don't prove anything!
Presumably the candidates read the master agreement, and still committed time and money to give it their best shot.
It didn't impress the committee enough to take a chance.
Interviews in the business world are the same thing, only they often don't even have a master agreement or contract they have to comply with.
All businesses are ugly in that respect...

[Seth Horner]

Bloke: That 2015-2016 season was still pretty heavy on the face (I played there for several years before true heir to Fedderly and OP’s new best friend, Aubrey Foard) but it was often due to the pops and education shows that are packed in on no-tuba weeks (that group works HARD). I think that further confirms what you are saying though. Pretty much any other profession is better than ours in terms of opportunity and even when you’re in the gig, you’re doing a lot of playing that is distinctly non-Mahler. Anybody with lofty ideals about fairness should take a good hard look at what the many seasoned players here are saying: the process was never designed to be ultra fair or to help us feel valued, it’s a job interview plain and simple. Up against such a cold system we need our community and a sense of comeraderie to keep us afloat in times of frustration. We should celebrate victories together and change the system as needed without denigrating our colleagues and their hard work. Who will stand up and congratulate you when you win? Who will say it was rigged?

[Three Valves]

Why should any private entity (whether for-profit or non-profit) be ~required~ to conduct interviews or auditions to fill a position?
If some private entity decides it wishes to hire Bill Blah-blah (for ~whatever~ reason/s, and whether-or-not 99% of everyone's else opinions are that Bill Blah-blah is the best person for that job), that entity (simply) should be able to offer a job to Bill Blah-blah.
To me, that is "fair".

That would be totally fair. So if that is the intent, say so. Don't give hope to dozens of musicians, enticing them to increase their credit card balances in order to travel to your charade of an audition.

My thoughts exactly...

[Tuboxchef]

Thank you to the professionals who have responded so far.

In any audition, hundreds may apply, and in most auditions, one will win. In the end, every audition will result in hundreds of people in debt monetarily. What have the others (losers) gained?

1. Valuable audition experience
2. A better understanding of the process of taking an audition
3. A better understanding of what could have gone better when your body is put under tremendous stress.
4. A better understanding of what they could have prepared better, whether musically, stamina, or some other attribute.
5. A better understanding of the mental process before, during, and after an audition.
6. A better understanding of their own body as it relates to an audition (this one is bigger than you realize, after all, you're supposed to peak at the right time on the right day in the right environment under whatever adversity is presented).
7. Traveling with a tuba is not easy. Recent auditions have shown the horrors of flying with a tuba. This is a skill that can also be improved with proper preparation.

You go back to the drawing board, make changes, try again. You'll probably lose. 100 take an audition, 1 wins. That means any given candidate has a 99% chance of losing. Most every audition is like this.

Aubrey is 100% right. File a grievance; all you're doing here is stirring the kettle, and frankly that does nothing. Let's put this to rest and congratulate Seth Cook on a great win. Keep in mind that Seth has been on the audition circuit lately, and I've personally seen him at the past several auditions. He's not an amateur. He's an experienced professional who earned a great job.

[proam]

You could argue that those who played the prelim round were granted an extraordinary opportunity - if you had no experience or background at all, you could have shown up and defeated those who they knew already were acceptable candidates.

It is my understanding that there used to be much more of the “keep it in the family” type of arrangements for available jobs. You’d ask a professor or player to recommend someone, they’d give a name and this person would be hired on the reputation of the recommending player alone.

At least now you have a chance. Perhaps slim, but a chance nonetheless. Doesn’t make a no-win feel any better, though.

[TheTuba]

What I feel like we are glossing over is the fact that these people came of their own free will. They willingly spent their money on a venture that might not succeed. They took the chance. And they lost. But while they lost the audition, they went away with the opportunity of seeing how the process and the stress mingle together( as mentioned above). This job is not the only one in the whole world. There are many auditions taking place for tuba. So I feel like this is a tad bit overreacting, especially by someone who didn't take the audition(it would be understandable if someone who DID take it posted about it).

[iiipopes]

I feel inclined to comment on this since I am quite close with one of the members of the low brass section in this orchestra. While the outcome of this audition may look suspicious I can assure you there was absolutely no malfeasance on the part of the committee during this audition. It is true that nobody was passed from the semifinal round to the final round, but that was not the desired outcome. From what I understand the lists were fair and people were given ample opportunity to play their best. It’s not the committees fault if that did not happen. The person that won was indeed alone in the final round, but only because there were others invited that did not show up. To cause speculation about the outcome of this audition is not fair to the people involved or the winner. My friend in this orchestra is one of the most ethical, trustworthy, and fair musicians I have ever met. Anyone who has doubts about the outcome of this audition can drop the speculation and give the winner of this audition his due credit for the outcome.

The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault. If a person doesn't show, they should not be extended an offer, no different than in any other profession extending interviews for a position, and the hiring authority extending the offer of the position better be able to show legitimate screening documentation and interview/audition results in order to properly justify the hire. Otherwise, it is all a sham.

But don't take my word for it: I worked for years for my uncle, an expert labor lawyer in the area where I live. If the local chapter of the Musicians' Union had any backbone, they would be filing an unfair labor charge with the NLRB at this point.

[hup_d_dup]

Haters, call the waambulance. Most every musician I know agrees on one fact: tuba players are generally assholes.

This is NOT a fact, and I believe that most musicians would disagree with your statement.

I am not a successful player, but I'm certainly an asshole.

On this point, I defer.

Hup

[iiipopes]

Haters, call the waambulance. Most every musician I know agrees on one fact: tuba players are generally assholes.

This is NOT a fact, and I believe that most musicians would disagree with your statement.

I am not a successful player, but I'm certainly an asshole.

On this point, I defer.

Hup

Tuba players, in general, are easy to get along with compared to other musicians, as these two jokes illustrate:

"What does one trumpet player say to another when they meet?" "Hi, I'm better than you."
"What does one tuba player say to another when they meet?" "Hi. Nice to meet you. Can I get the first round?"

I don't know of any other instrument gatherings similar to our TubaChristmas, where we celebrate each other and our preferred instruments.

No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. Just don't provoke us, because we do know how to wield heavy metal. (in more ways than one.)

[Monstertuba]

The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault.

First of all congrats to Seth Cook! Who has sat through an audition process for years of playing with the Washington National Opera, and will continue to do so until he gets tenure. It is incredibly naive to not realize that years of playing with an orchestra will show every flaw both artistic and professional/social a player has. FAR more than an 8 minute preliminary round.

I tell my children sweeping the floor is not the job, the job, is getting the floor clean. For performing organizations holding an audition to fill a vacancy is NOT the job, the job, is hiring an outstanding musician AND colleague to work with for the next 30 years. Seth had a far more significant 'preliminary round' than any one else. He then nailed a screened final round and won the position. None of that means someone else couldn't have played incredibly well, advanced to the finals, and won the position instead. That's why they held the audition. To see if someone could impress them more than the guy they'd been playing with. No one did. Completely fair. Congrats again to Seth!

[iiipopes]

The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault.

First of all congrats to Seth Cook! Who has sat through an audition process for years of playing with the Washington National Opera, and will continue to do so until he gets tenure. It is incredibly naive to not realize that years of playing with an orchestra will show every flaw both artistic and professional/social a player has. FAR more than an 8 minute preliminary round.

I tell my children sweeping the floor is not the job, the job, is getting the floor clean. For performing organizations holding an audition to fill a vacancy is NOT the job, the job, is hiring an outstanding musician AND colleague to work with for the next 30 years. Seth had a far more significant 'preliminary round' than any one else. He then nailed a screened final round and won the position. None of that means someone else couldn't have played incredibly well, advanced to the finals, and won the position instead. That's why they held the audition. To see if someone could impress them more than the guy they'd been playing with. No one did. Completely fair. Congrats again to Seth!

So...it gets worse. They have auditions to try to kick out the guy who already has the job. That is demeaning, and makes the reputation of the organization even worse.

[Mark]

Tuba players, in general, are easy to get along with compared to other musicians, ...

No, in general, tuba players are NOT assholes. ...

I thought this way until I read this thread.

[Aubrey Foard]

The problem is what was set forth above: no auditioning candidates made it to the final round. "Invitation" doesn't cut it. The entire process smacks of preference, not merits. Those who were "invited" should have been invited to the preliminary rounds. I agree with the OP. This is not right, and the entire process should be opened back up and the "invitees" made to endure the preliminary rounds of audition as well. Everything else is excuses to get a preferred person into the position without auditioning, no matter how many "angels" attest to the supposed integrity of the committee. It is the committee's fault. If a person doesn't show, they should not be extended an offer, no different than in any other profession extending interviews for a position, and the hiring authority extending the offer of the position better be able to show legitimate screening documentation and interview/audition results in order to properly justify the hire. Otherwise, it is all a sham.

But don't take my word for it: I worked for years for my uncle, an expert labor lawyer in the area where I live. If the local chapter of the Musicians' Union had any backbone, they would be filing an unfair labor charge with the NLRB at this point.

Here is another very problematic argument. Regarding auto-advancing candidates, most orchestras have their own policy on auto-advancing enshrined in their collective bargaining agreement, which was negotiated with union representation. If the national AFM took issue with this, it wouldn't be so prevalent in both full and part-time orchestras.

Second, unless you have some evidence of wrongdoing, it's just wasted energy. The committee has pages and pages of notes regarding their decisions in both prelims and semi-finals. They put the winner through a rigorous audition process in the final round with dozens of pages of notes to back up their reasoning.

If you somehow still feel this is unfair: presuming you are a dues-paying AFM member, you could complain to the national - but, without any evidence of wrongdoing, that won't get you anywhere.

Congrats to Seth, an incredible tubist who I have known for 18 years. He has been in multiple final rounds with me after having worked his way up from prelims. I couldn't be happier for him.

OP and others can claim that they are not questioning the merit of the winner of an audition when they call into question (again, without evidence) the audition process - but, in the minds of some, that will always occur. Again, I would suggest that if you want change to happen: research the topic, talk to experts, write a paper for peer review, and present it at a conference.

[jr2262euph]

Your comments have all been excellent.

[Three Valves]

“To me, you are all equally worthless...”