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Hi,

This may be a pretty dumb question:). I grew up playing BBb horns through college(Cerveny, Miraphone), but quit playing afterwards. Fast forward to a few years ago I found myself looking to play again. After much research I settled on Wessex since they seemed to have earned the respect here, and went with the Eb offering they had at the time. The Solo 3+1 horn.

I haven't played as much as I had planned since purchasing it(4 years ago). Mainly due to not wanting to disturb neighbours nor wanting to practice 100% with a mute. That concern is solved now, so I've begun regularly practicing. I have also begun playing in a group doing dixieland jazz for fun on a regular basis.

I honestly just do not like the 3+1 setup. I don't find it natural. I try to force myself to play with it instead of falling back to 1+3 combinations. I know with practice this will come, but for now I can either stumble through a walking line using 4th valve combinations, or use 13/123 and play it without an issue.

A couple questions.
1.) Is there something about a 3+1 that makes this learning curve truly worth it to master at this point?
2.) Anyone else been in this situation? Did you stick it out or go back to a 'regular' 4v horn? Did you regret whichever decision?

Truth be told, i'm trying to convince myself it's worth purchasing the Sam Gnagey Eb horn, and sell the Eb Solo 3+1 horn. I'm curious on other folks experience when it comes to 3+1 horns.

I will mainly be playing in this small 'Dixieland' group or also a typical swedish 'blåsokestra' -- 30-40 piece Wind ensemble which marches periodically.

Best,

Jacob "Perhaps learning Eb on a 3+1 horn while playing dixie jazz charts requiring transposition is a bit ambitious.." Morgan

If you have funds and space to spare, it looks to me like you could use a helicon or sousaphone to good advantage. You should be able to find one with 4 valves (helicon, anyway), and it's a safe bet that it won't be 3+1!

Maybe I'm saying this after playing a 3+1 euphonium for a few years, but I think you get used to it. That said, I personally would prefer 4+1 so it doesn't differ from my contrabass tuba. Now, maybe 3+1 Eb is a whole different realm, I'm not sure. I've only played one for a couple minutes. I don't think you could make a "wrong" decision here. Both are equally capable of getting the job done.

Being left-handed, but playing conventional brass instruments with the right hand working the valves, I also do not like the 3+1 setup. If you do want to stay with Eb, would suggest you consider a 4+T in-line Eb, of which you can find both piston and rotary valve models. You will want the 5th valve to help intonation and to extend the low register, as with 4+T low Ab instead of 4+1(pull) on a non-compensated 4-valve tuba, etc. Cost varies all over the place.

Blokes comments was what I was wondering. When I read posts it seems people associate 3+1 to better tuning. -- including those claiming x model they had was the exception.

I was always left wondering if the "average Joe" noticed a difference, as I definitely put myself in that category. Is the tuning so bad on a 5v that your average group will ask you to quit playing?

I strive to play in tune, or more importantly blend in to the group. I am not a professional nor possess an amazing ear. Nor aspire as a soloist. Just playing for fun with friends.

I appreciate the comments this far. I suppose I was hoping to hear from someone who also gave up on 3+1 and later regretted it or found a 5v to be "acceptable"

To clarify on the transpose comment. I meant an octave:) I've learned Eb but when playing Dixie charts I find myself going down an octave above an F. Considering the hours I've had on Bb vs Eb it's not surprising when the bass line gets moving the added transposition can result in a Bb fingering coming out instead of Eb:) or find my left finger still holding the 4th down:) my comment was just the combination of that and operating a 4th valve with left hand..I shouldn't be surprised it's challenging:)

The connection between 3+1 and intonation must be, that the 3+1 configuration correlates with Blaikley compensating valves. It would be a false connection - there are right-hand-4V compensating, 3+1 non-compensating, and anyway the fully compensating systems are 3V.

Dixie chart bass parts are probably written for string bass/bass guitar, meant to be played 8vb - as I guess you know.

I purchased a really nice Packer Eb (3+1) from Bloke several years ago. Wonderful horn! Beautiful sound, good intonation, the whole nine yards. That horn is now for sale. I bought a B&S 22P (5 valved non-compensating) about a year ago because I just couldn't get the left hand fourth valve thing. I could have probably worked harder at it, but my laziness won out. I really like my B&S and I think I'll have it for years to come. Having said that, the Packer had better intonation.

Patrick

As far as do you get used to it, yes. I went from a four in line euph to a 3+1 euph because a) the replacement was far better in tune, and b) I was playing the 4th valve on the inline with my left hand anyway because my hands are small and I have trouble with pistons in general.

I did not seriously consider 3+1 Eb tubas after I play tested one and found the reach beyond me plus I was afraid I was going to drop it. So I got a five rotary valve that has excellent intonation characteristics and is ergonomically the best for me. I am sure I am not your size. !!

Well, having played and owned/borrowed now 4 different Eb tubas for use in Brass Band (both upper and lowe Eb part charts), and having tested a few others, I have these observations to offer:

- I can assure you that there are 4v top-action non-compensated, 3+1 top-action(4th on side) compensated, 3V compensated, and 5V non-compensated Eb tubas which either have bad alignment of partials, or good alignment of partials, no matter what valve system they have. So, you should start finding and choosing among the Eb tubas where the partials sit where they should.

- Playing Eb Brass Band competition pieces, I find a 3+1 compensated or a 5V uncompensated setup necessary to avoid messing with 4th slide pulls to get E and A (42 or 523 on non-compensators) Ab (41 or 54 on non-compensators) to sir spot on. G (43 or 234 on non-compensators) is usually fine. On a 4V un-compensated system, E, A and Ab will get sharp to very sharp and need 4th valve slide pulls (or triggers, or ..)

- going below to Gb, F, E just above pedal Eb, both 4+1 compensated and 5V run out of steam intonation wise. On a 5V non-compensated system where you have access to pull the 4th slide, you can get perfect intonation on all of these. On a 4+1 non-compensated or a 3+1 compensated (or even worse, a 4v non-compensated), these notes will be more-or-less out of tune, because you usually can't grab a slide to adjust.

- the 3+1 setup is imho ergonomically more friendly, as you avoid using the little pinky for the 4th valve. You use the left hand (and need to get used to it). Make sure you choose a tuba where you can reach the 4th easily!

- the 4V setup is imho the worst for your right hand, as it forces you to switch between 42 and 23 combinations, which need a lot of practice. On the 5V (in one hand) setup, you can use 523 and 23 switches, which are really easy to perform.

- it is much faster and easier to train your brain for another valve system combinations, than your hand/fingers for ergonomically bad combination shifts.

This said, if you don't need to play often deep, seldom play in sharps, and/or have a trigger or access to a 4th valve slide to pull, a good 4V top-action or rotary can be a fine choice.

But for Brass band charts, the 3+1 compensated or 5V non-compensated (front-action or rotary, as you wish) is a good choice. Especially when playing together with 3+1 compensators. Or the lower part.

Just my 5 cents ...

if you are playing mostly Dixieland and a small band why don't you just go back to BBb? find an old King 3 valver with a forward facing bell. perfect Dixieland horn and a great band horn.

kk

ken k wrote:if you are playing mostly Dixieland and a small band why don't you just go back to BBb? find an old King 3 valver with a forward facing bell. perfect Dixieland horn and a great band horn.

kk

I've considered that. I think I just prefer an EEb, no real logic behind it. Always wanted one as I kid, then I got one. It's been a challenge, but I'm hesitant to go back to BBb. The comfortable 'range' on EEb for me fits within what I see myself playing, then again so would a BBb. I don't see myself playing much down below Low F, besides for sake of practicing it nor above the staff. Just something about Eb tubas have always fascinated me.

If I were to move away from this 3+1 it would be to the Gnagey which is a 5v non-compensating(99.9% sure:D). Perhaps it be good to take a trip to London and try it(assuming wessex allows such a thing) before making the decision.

I appreciate the comments, has given me lots to consider!

Jacob Morgan wrote:...Perhaps it be good to take a trip to London and try it(assuming wessex allows such a thing) before making the decision.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard any news about their new Chicago showroom?

I love EE flat tubas, and especially the 3+1 set ups that exist. From a purely sound stand point my favorite tuba was my old PT-22p. Again as a trombonist who doubled on quite a few 3+1 euphoniums before adding tuba to the line up I see no issue transitioning to a similar set up on tuba. The 5 valves in one hand was too much of a stretch for me due to the size of the piston block. I prefer rotary valves, so my preference would be perhaps for a 5 valve rotary valve e flat tuba, where the 4th and 5th valves could also be accessed by the left hand. The John Packer e flat tuba sounds great, I eagerly hope for a 15” bell version of it. My Wessex solo has been great and meets all my needs although low F and E could be a little easier. Overall it is more nimble than my pt-22p though.

On a walking bass line or fast technical passage I just use the 3 valves. Use the 4th only for sustained notes.
And I know some secret Voodoo fingerings to adjust intonation on some pitches.

Oops- I was wrong on my bell request... My solo is 16 3/4” which I am quite fond of. I have played a yamaha 321 EE flat tuba which was my favorite of all the yamaha EE flat tubas, I just don’t like 4 valves in a row, and either need a compensating system or a 5th valve. It would be great to try a John Packer with a Yamaha bell. Bring it to TMEA if you find one!

For those curious on the decision.

I will be selling my Wessex Solo 3+1, and ordering the Gnagey. I have a probable buyer taking the train up tomorrow for a play test and a second one lined up if it falls through. Feels like a good home, student in college it seems.

Now the only remaining decision silver vs lacquer. I know better than to ask that question here:) Personally love the look of silver, but trying to reconcile that with the reality of maintenance.

Glad you didn't ask that question!

aqualung wrote:On a walking bass line or fast technical passage I just use the 3 valves. Use the 4th only for sustained notes.
And I know some secret Voodoo fingerings to adjust intonation on some pitches.

There's several videos of Bill Reichenbach playing Eb on youtube in a big band and he seems to do this- basically play it as a 3 valve horn with a low range/octave key.


https://youtu.be/P85yR5CSzuk

You might consider trying a used Besson 983 when one becomes available. That would offer the best (and I suppose the worst) of both worlds. Compensating 4 valve horn, front action. I like mine, but holding 4 down with my right pinky can tie up my other fingers a bit, which is a big advantage for the 3+1 configuration. Unfortunately I found some of them to be lemons.

3+1 is sold/gone. Went to a student fresh out of gymnasium (a cross between highschool and college/trade school/I have no idea really).

If anyone is curious, I went with silver for the gnagey. After extensive research, I am convinced it will provide a better sound over lacquer.


Kidding, I just think it looks great and I'll tolerate the maintenance.