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There is no third choice!

-Use the cornet book with the given tempos and fingerings as appropriate for whatever horn you have (and yes, you have to learn treble clef)

The tuba version is transposed for CC tuba, not BBb!

I use the treble clef version most of the time.

I use the Trumpet book and just use the fingering pattern on both my F and C horn.

One thing not mentioned in this seemingly perpetual discussion is that learning another clef makes it a lot easier to learn still other clefs and transpositions. It's like a mental muscle that gets exercised. Occasionally, I'll play tuba with my wife's flute chor, using bass clef (for double bass) parts transposing an octave down, treble clef in C for bass flute and treble clef in G for alto, usually in the same rehearsal. Then it's off to brass band to play Eb treble clef...

If you play with an ensemble, it's also good mental exercise to say "Let's play this piece down (or up) by (specify an interval)."

Chuck(G) wrote:One thing not mentioned in this seemingly perpetual discussion is that learning another clef makes it a lot easier to learn still other clefs and transpositions.

Agree. Look at printed music liek written language. For most tuba players concerptich bass clef is our native tounge. But, learning the first new language (be it German, spanish, or treble clef, or "C" t.c.) is the hardest. The rest come easier. So soon you have no trouble reading Alto, tenor, or sub-bass or any of these either.

If you play with an ensemble, it's also good mental exercise to say "Let's play this piece down (or up) by (specify an interval)."

That's one that gives me real fits. Treating each clef as a new language work well, but not for transposing on the fly. That like reading prices on the slef at the store and adding/subtracting $0.75 or $1.33 to me. Takes too much metal effort to do at the spped needed to play a song.

Praise be to those who can do it.

You didn't specify for whom in your poll. Getting your feet wet in Arban's of any stripe isn't easy for a middling player who's trying to improve. I started in the 1950's on the trombone version but the hurdle there was learning to transpose down an octave.

After 35 years away from the tuba I began again 2 1/2 years ago and quickly found my way to the tuba Arban's on BBb. This was strange territory at first, but eventually everything began to make sense. More recently I've purchased a trombone version in order to compare them on the BBb.

Bottom line: you need to work from both books if you really want to try to master your instrument in any key. I've a long ways to go, but I can see how my playing is benefitted by using either book. They eventually get sticky hard and your fingers get tired from the unaccustomed fingerings until you've done your time 'behind the woodshed'. Then things start to work much better in all playing situations.

I wouldn't suggest that you adopt one Arban version and forego the others. Each has something different to offer.

Just my $.02

TubaWannaBe wrote:What would be the preferred way to transpose and play the Arbans for trumpet?

Use the trumpet fingerings so that written C = C on a CC tuba. Alternatively, you could add 3 flats to the key signature, treat it as bass clef and play Eb tuba fingerings

Same thing, your choice.

Like Chuck(G) said, I always used the cornet fingerings for the cornet book. That is, for CC don't "transpose" at all, except for clef (written low C = low C). This will get you through everything AS INTENDED. If you're far enough along to use piano accompanyment, then you're far enough along to know what to do for the implied cornet transposition, or use a BBb horn, or...

ThomasDodd wrote:That's one that gives me real fits. Treating each clef as a new language work well, but not for transposing on the fly. That like reading prices on the slef at the store and adding/subtracting $0.75 or $1.33 to me. Takes too much metal effort to do at the spped needed to play a song.

Like reading a different clef, the idea is to free you from the tyranny of a mindset. In the course of learning to read music, we all tend to fall into a number of unproductive (i.e. non-musical) habits.

With brass players, it's most often "if this is the third line of the bass staff, then I finger the note open" sort of thinking, which is ultimately counter-productive because it makes it that much harder to pick up a differently-keyed instrument.

For many people, it's the idea that a key signature is sort of a permanent "accidental". It's not--it merely states the key a passage is written in and to think of it as a "permanent accidental" divorces one from effecitvely realizing the key being used and the degree of the scale each note represents. In fact, playing in Gb major should be no more difficult than playing in C major. (This is, after all, why one practices scales, isn't it?).

Doing exercises like transposing on the fly seem difficult at first (hint: use easy pieces to start with), but it accomplishes what learning a different clef or fingerings does--it demolishes the convenient but counterproductive "shortcut" we learned years ago.

If you look at older parts, you see that this is what is intended, as the clef and key signature appear but once for each section--I think the intention was that you'd only need to see it once to know what key yoiu'd be playing in:



Does this make sense?

Man, too many typos to correct... Got in a hurry

Chuck(G) wrote:

ThomasDodd wrote:That's one that gives me real fits. Treating each clef as a new language work well, but not for transposing on the fly. That like reading prices on the slef at the store and adding/subtracting $0.75 or $1.33 to me. Takes too much metal effort to do at the spped needed to play a song.

Like reading a different clef, the idea is to free you from the tyranny of a mindset. In the course of learning to read music, we all tend to fall into a number of unproductive (i.e. non-musical) habits.

Agreed. I'm just not there yet

With brass players, it's most often "if this is the third line of the bass staff, then I finger the note open" sort of thinking, which is ultimately counter-productive because it makes it that much harder to pick up a differently-keyed instrument.

Luckily I never suffered that one. I did learn notes by name. Paino early on helped there. Hanging with a trumpet player did too. Switching from bone totuba, but not comopletely dropping bone did too.

For many people, it's the idea that a key signature is sort of a permanent "accidental". It's not--it merely states the key a passage is written in and to think of it as a "permanent accidental" divorces one from effecitvely realizing the key being used and the degree of the scale each note represents. In fact, playing in Gb major should be no more difficult than playing in C major.

This is one I do suffer from. That's what I was tought. Never had any theory classes either. Never studied minor keys, ever. I know about them from guitar stuff (it was the 80's and I like metal ) That stuff just isn't tought to non-colleg students, and even in college it only the music majors that get it. Again, the little theory I know is from guitar.

So I know how to form a minor chord, but couldn't tell the difference in harmonic minor and natural minor. I know I-IV-V progressions, but not inversions or augmente / diminished / 7th chords, why to uses them, and similar.

I wish I could look at a score and know it major or minor. Or that my part is the root, or the 5th in a the chord.

(This is, after all, why one practices scales, isn't it?).

Oh. that's why. I thought is was just something the contest/adution judges wanted to hear, just something you had to learn. You say it has some real value? Damn, wish my directors had told me that

I learned to play tuba and trombone. No one ever bother to teach me to make music:!:

I'm having to learn that on my own, 25 years later.

ThomasDodd wrote:I learned to play tuba and trombone. No one ever bother to teach me to make music

SOooooooo that's why those violas were always glaring at us!

Guess we should have picked different instruments!

windshieldbug wrote:

ThomasDodd wrote:I learned to play tuba and trombone. No one ever bother to teach me to make music

SOooooooo that's why those violas were always glaring at us!

Guess we should have picked different instruments!

Actually, we're all in the same boat:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/listenup/en ... ents.shtml

Just heard it mentioned again on Radio 3 "In Tune".

Chuck(G) wrote:Actually, we're all in the same boat

True, but challanged or not, I can still swim faster than a viola!

windshieldbug wrote:

ThomasDodd wrote:I learned to play tuba and trombone. No one ever bother to teach me to make music

SOooooooo that's why those violas were always glaring at us!

I'm not sure how many of them were educated about making music eitehr. I know the entire Jr. and Sr. High band was only instructed in playing the notes on the page. That all brass and the woodwinds. Same in college. Marching season was all about the notes on the page, and concert season the same, at least in the group I played with. Maybe the "Symphionic Band" was better, but it was 95% music majors anyway, so they got that in other classes.

ThomasDodd wrote:Maybe the "Symphionic Band" was better, but it was 95% music majors anyway, so they got that in other classes.

Don't bet your life on it; majors were either trying to keep their heads above water learning teaching or learning what to-do/not-to-do on their axe. A HUGE amount of it was technique. There was no "music" class per se. I remember some real yawners of senior and graduate recitals; you either had it or you didn't...

jomazq wrote:i don't understand what the problem is with playing a BBb tuba reading CC fingerings if it's all concert pitch anyways ... right? so when you see E you play second right? Bb is open... and G is 1&2 or have i said something dumb?

Some, but not all, of the excercises are designed to teach or enforce certain fingering patterns. For the tuba book, those excercises were transposed to work with a CC tuba.

windshieldbug wrote:

ThomasDodd wrote:Maybe the "Symphionic Band" was better, but it was 95% music majors anyway, so they got that in other classes.

Don't bet your life on it; majors were either trying to keep their heads above water learning teaching or learning what to-do/not-to-do on their axe. A HUGE amount of it was technique. There was no "music" class per se. I remember some real yawners of senior and graduate recitals; you either had it or you didn't...

So where does one learn this stuff? Like I said, I was never taught chord structure or progressions. I picked up some of it reading guitar mags (and attemption to play the transcriptions). But where do people learn to look at a score and just see that that a Gm chord with the 2 inversion? Or play the peice and know the chord?

Thomas- a player who want to be a musician

ThomasDodd wrote:So where does one learn this stuff? Like I said, I was never taught chord structure or progressions. I picked up some of it reading guitar mags (and attemption to play the transcriptions). But where do people learn to look at a score and just see that that a Gm chord with the 2 inversion? Or play the peice and know the chord?

Oh, some of THAT you can learn in music school, in theory classes and ear training, but not that way, and not enough. But to learn how make music, to be musical, if you don't have it, is left to people like your private teacher to communicate. Who probably is the ONE person who should concentrate on technique. Which is why people are so indebted to their teachers if that happens...

ThomasDodd wrote:So where does one learn this stuff? Like I said, I was never taught chord structure or progressions. I picked up some of it reading guitar mags (and attemption to play the transcriptions). But where do people learn to look at a score and just see that that a Gm chord with the 2 inversion? Or play the peice and know the chord?

I have a couple of suggestions.

There are some online music theory courses that attempt to address some of this. For example,

http://patsy.cis.rit.edu/Audio/theory/theory.html
http://www.easymusictheory.com/lessons.html
http://www.musictheory.net/

But--

I think Joe S. has mentioned this, but I'll second it-- one important thing is to learn to play the piano. The technique of reading keyboard music is quite different from that of single-note instruments--it's more of a "whole word" approach than "single-letter". You also get a view of the whole work, not just the bass line or the melody.

And--

Arranging music is another very powerful learning tool. Many major composers earned their stripes by arranging other people's music (yes, even Bach started out this way). You're basically taking a work apart and reassembling it--it's hard not to learn something that way.

Chuck(G) wrote:There are some online music theory courses that attempt to address some of this. For example,

http://patsy.cis.rit.edu/Audio/theory/theory.html
http://www.easymusictheory.com/lessons.html
http://www.musictheory.net/

Cool. I'd seen the musictheroy.net site but not the others.

I think Joe S. has mentioned this, but I'll second it-- one important thing is to learn to play the piano.

If only. I never could get the hang of that. Same with guitar. I have a one track mind, and doing melody , counter melody, and background at once never worked. Moving one had for a completely differnet purpose than the other is a mess. Of course short fingers doesn't help any at all.