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Never had one until I bought this Mack Brass CC, so like you, I am used to the customary 4-valve fingerings. I like having the 5th valve for tuning, but have small hands plus some arthritis, which makes the combined positions of the thumb ring and 5th valve very awkward for me. Removing the thumb ring helped, but that causes other issues, so I am going to have a repairman move the ring to a better spot and possibly modify the valve "spatula" or whatever you call it for easier reach. I think the 5th valve is a good thing, but after 50+ years of tuba playing, it's hard to make it a habit.

My opinion.

My Alexander 163 CC has four valves and does not need five valves. I played it it many professional jobs and it did what I needed with four valves. One of my strengths was intonation. David Bragunier, Ron Bishop, and other greats did not need five valves (I am NOT in their league, that would be delusional!). That said, my MW 32 has five valves and when I played it in brass professional quintets that tuba was better with five valves. My answer: it depends.

My opinion and $1.00 will get you a cup of coffee at my local WAWA gas station, but you better have the dollar or you will not get the coffee! Enough said?

Mark

小子 wrote:如果你認為沒有必要，為什麼要問？

因为做这样的事很有趣 (几乎和中文回复一样有趣)

As necessary as a forth.

bloke wrote: [2] play like sousaphones in the low range

A topic that is rarely discussed here, I think - how do sousaphones play in the low range?

Sousaphones in general, or is this more about the more prevalent models - King 2350 etc.?

(Of course even though I have a sousaphone, I have no idea - having never in 30 years been called upon to play below F, I have given that range the attention it merits: none.)

I like the fact that with my new 1293, I can get away without pulling slides. Without the 5th, I (as lazy as I am) would have to pull for the low F and below, so I like the convenience factor of it. It is especially useful for some alternate fingerings, in particular low Db 523 comes to mind. When working up Snedecor #1, there are a lot of 2-4 to 2-3 combinations, and my fingers don't do well with that, so I like having the option to use the 5th for that reason.

I recently made the switch to Eb tuba (had to downsize to one horn), using it in Orchestra and Brass ensembles I have very thankful to have a 5th valve. (Not a fan of compensating horns, I refer 5V, but not the point of this discussion currently)

Sure, bass tuba is typically going to need more valves than contrabass, so I kind of assumed as a given that we were talking about contrabass tuba - but there's really a difference here between BBb and CC, am I right? Not just because CC players are 5-valve personality types, but apparently that one whole step higher will put you into needs-5-valves territory, hence some very fancy BBb tubas like Gronitz PBK come in 4V versions where the PCK is 5V.

I am currently revisiting adding a 5th valve to my BBb horn. And Im sure my needs do not require it but Im curious to see how it comes out. The question remains if my wallet would agree...

JJ

For me, depends on the instrument & music choice. I prefer my 5v Eb for most of my quintet and some 'freelance' work. But for more laid-back/easier/outdoor gigs that are not as 'serious' I will use my 4v Eb.

My CC tuba is 5rv and usually prefer all 5 valves. Could prolly get by with just 4 valves, though.

On BBb tuba, I prefer 4 valves. On BBb sousaphone, 3 valves is standard. False tones are usually pretty great on BBb sousaphone, and notes are easier to 'lip' intune than on most tubas, so I set my slides to compromise positions (usually #2 & #3 slides out a bit).

Really depends on the setting. Playing in a high level Brass Band I now have 6 valves on my non compensated Bb tuba. Dependant flat half tone and dependant flat whole tone. Same tuba used in an orchestra, concert band or for simpler music I wouldn’t have bothered. But now that I have it I won’t take them off.

I probably won’t play C tuba regularly. If I did I would be tempted to do the same thing, but maybe make one dependant and one independent depending on the intonation chracateristics of the tuba I used.

I am a (pretty good) amateur and a couple of years ago had a paradigm shift in the way I think when I play. A pro player introduced me to drones and all of a sudden I switched my mental focus to mostly consider intonation. I hate pulling slides, don’t mind lipping and am happy to mash buttons. The extra valves allow me to get push button intonation in the low register on the Bb tuba.

CC yes, BBb no. Quite frankly, a 4th on BBb is not necessary on "the right" tuba.

bloke wrote:

Stryk wrote:

bloke wrote:SIX buttons is NOT that many buttons

But, it does add a lot of weight. And, at our age.......

Valves #'s 5 and 6 add less weight than valve #4.

But valve #4 is MUCH more needed/important on most tubas than are valves #5 & #6.

The only reason to really 'need' 5 or 6 valves is when the music calls for extended low-register playing, and even then, most tubas get stuffier in response the more valves you use the lower you go. Kinda wish tubas had more of a "sousaphone response" in the low/pedal register. But BBb sousaphones and, probably, recording bell BBb tubas offer those response qualities because of their large bells and being pitched in BBb.

If I recall correctly, bloke has volunteered to accept students for a curriculum which includes a full regimen of physical training on his campus, which is replete with workout equipment. You too could partake of his robust tuba-hauling conditioning. My impression initially was that he pictured younger players signing up, but perhaps the need is greater at the other end.

The flat whole tone valve can be removed to reduce weight. No unsoldering required.

The 5th and 6th valves are left hand operated and I find much easier to use than a thumb operated 5th valve. Both from an ergonomic point of view and a logical point of view.

Yes it's heavy, but the position of the left hand makes it easier for me to hold and play than some other tubas I have played. I have played some handmade 5 valve 6/4 tubas recently, yes they are lighter to pick up but once seated my 6 valve hydraulically made Bb tuba is easy enough to deal with.

In terms of 'stuffiness' it is better than all the compensated Bb tubas I have played.

"if you don't need 6 valves your music is too easy, your ear is not good enough or you should take up the trombone" (okay just stirring - please don't flame me!)

Not that this will work for everyone but... I remember listening to the Columbus (Ohio) Symphony where Paul Bierley played everything on a four-valve Martin E flat. Paul used false tones brilliantly and did a pretty good amount of slide pulling but the end product was always musical and a pleasure to hear.

Not that this will work for everyone either, but I never wished for a fifth valve when I had my Alexander 163. Dave Braugunier once said to play them like a three valve horn and set it up for 1-4 to give you a good low F. Alex’s are more work than some other horns for sure but I sure enjoyed the results with mine.

Absolute necessity ...

Patrase wrote:I am a (pretty good) amateur and a couple of years ago had a paradigm shift in the way I think when I play. A pro player introduced me to drones and all of a sudden I switched my mental focus to mostly consider intonation. I hate pulling slides, don’t mind lipping and am happy to mash buttons. The extra valves allow me to get push button intonation in the low register on the Bb tuba.

That's why I like having a 5th on my BBb, and I use it more when I'm playing alongside CC players (and/or a section that's really good at tuning with the ensemble). A BBb's 2-4 low B or E is way off from a CC playing the same pitches.

It depends upon what music I'm playing, in what setting, and with which instrument.

A couple of years ago, I did a lot of playing on a 1936 Martin Mammoth that was mechanically virtually perfect. It had three valves, and could do anything I needed to in pro and semi-pro bands.

In the past year, I've played a number of gigs on two tubas; one was a 1951 Conn Donatelli CC, 4-piston, which played equally well in band and orchestra gigs, and did anything I needed it to do.

In the past 9 months or so I've played several band and orchestra gigs on a Rudolf Meinl 5-rotor 3/4 CC tuba. To do everything I needed it to do, it needed to have the 5 valves, and it was quite comfortable.

On large BBb tubas, which is what I use for most of my performances, I don't think a 5th valve is a "necessity." However, having a fifth valve makes some playing demands a little easier to navigate.