on the tongue...

[windshieldbug]

what role does the tongue play in tone production?

Quite a bit. If you move it around while playing a long tone you will hear the tone change A LOT. After you stert a note with the tongue, you want it to be flat and down, not "U" shaped. Have that conversation with a teacher or someone similar that you're willing to listen to!

[joh_tuba]

I would encourage everyone to read 'The Inner Game of Tennis' by Timothy Gallwey.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Far be it for me to be the Tubenet police. However, I feel very strongly that these sorts of conversations can be very damaging. Anyone that has been down the path of endless self analysis knows how frustrating, physically and emotionally painful, and unproductive this sort of line of thought can be. The suggested reading does a much better job of describing a healthier and more productive approach than I could ever hope to.

My opinion FWIW.

[Chuck(G)]

Everyone's different in this respect. There are some for whom good articulation and tone production is almost effortless. Then there are others...

When I was having problems with good tone production, my teacher asked me to stick out my tongue. He said that I had one of the fattest tongues he'd ever seen and that I'd constantly have to work to keep my tongue as low as possible in my mouth.

I even made up an aid to encourage the habit. I took a short length of 1" PVC sprinkler pipe and formed it to conform to my mouth. I'd practice with this thing resting on top of my tongue, essentially forcing it to the floor of my mouth. While I couldn't articulate with this thing, I got used to the feeling of where my tongue should be most of the time. It helped a lot with tone production. If I still have the thing, I'll take a photo of it.

I think that the "Song and Wind" book relates problems of tongue vs. oral cavity size.

[tubatooter1940]

I find my tongue essentially flat when I tongue a note and flat when the note is going on. Once the note is tongued, I try my utmost to keep the darn thing out of the way.
Ta Ta for now!
tubatooter1940

[MaryAnn]

I would encourage everyone to read 'The Inner Game of Tennis' by Timothy Gallwey.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Far be it for me to be the Tubenet police. However, I feel very strongly that these sorts of conversations can be very damaging. Anyone that has been down the path of endless self analysis knows how frustrating, physically and emotionally painful, and unproductive this sort of line of thought can be. The suggested reading does a much better job of describing a healthier and more productive approach than I could ever hope to.

My opinion FWIW.

I totally and completely disagree with you. Some people are natural players, and "just let your body do it" will work for them. Other people are not even halfway approaching being natural players, and just letting their body do what it wants will get them completely nowhere, and labled talentless to boot. A good teacher will be able to tell the difference and provide the type of guidance needed. I'm a natural at quite a few things (like throwing and hitting a baseball) but brass playing is not one of them; I played horn for ten years, going from teacher to teacher, having them give me excercises to do and hearing things like "analysis is paralysis" and "you think too much" and blah blah blah when I tried to get information out of them as to HOW to play the horn....until I finally found one who spent two (2) hours with me showing me how to put the horn on my face correctly. After that I started to improve rapidly. Pity I didn't get that two hours in my first month of lessons, isn't it? Stupid bunch of asses who "taught" me that ten years. Expensive asses, too. So if you teach....don't fall into the trap of thinking all students are either naturals or have no talent, with nothing in the middle left to do any teaching to.
MA

[MaryAnn]

I would add (this is a soapbox time period, I guess) that people who have never had good instruction are unaware that there is such a thing, and fall back on The Mystique of Brass Playing culture. That being: It is impossible to be told how to play a brass instrument (given personal educational history;) therefore it is a Mystery School. Mystery Schools by definition cannot be put into words and as such are elevated above normal human endeavors. So teachers, who may be wonderful people and wonderful players, who teach The Mystery School, achieve elevated status. They may do wonders for the people who already have acquired a competent and solid basic technique and are ready to move beyond it.

My biggest problems in taking music lessons have always been my perfect pitch and my musicality; I go in to a lesson with a new teacher being able to hit the notes in tune and musically, but with horrible tone, and they figure they should not mess with my lousy, unworkable technique because I've already achieved what they try to teach. Or worse, they start in on a "lesson" in how to play it with THEIR musical interpretation, still ignoring the technical problems. And then I continue, frustrated, not being able to play any but the simplest music because my technique won't get me there, and I hear things like "use more air." (the violin equivalent, which I also experienced, was "use more bow.") Kiddies, it don't matter how much air you use if you have the Embouchure From Hell.

My stellar example of the worst possible teacher is one during the Ten Years who, in the first lesson, told me my face was "too tense" and "don't do it that way." In the second lesson, after I worked hard all week, she literally yelled at me, "WILL YOU STOP DOING THAT!"

I'll add that I have not had these problems in tuba instruction, which fact is fascinating to me, especially given the "air mystique" of tuba playing. Somehow the teachers/players I ran into didn't have a problem telling me how to play the tuba physically, along with the air mantra.

MA