New Miraphone 191 Tuning Flat - Help!!

[Cobra1502]

In June 2018 I received my new 5V 191 Bb. It played, tuned, slotted very well. However, after 2 weeks I realized it wasn’t gold brass which I had ordered. Long story short, I ordered a gold brass replacement and was given a new Miraphone 186 4V to use while I waited. 2 weeks ago, I got my new gold brass 191. No matter what I do, I cannot get the open valve tuned. It’s about 20 to 30 cents flat across the range Bb0 to Eb4 with main tuning all in. I can lip it up about 20 cents but I shouldn’t have to do this. I have used 5 different mouthpieces with similar results, 3 tunes including Korg, blowed compress air through it to check for blockage from packing, checked for leaks, verified I ordered A440 tuba. Still no luck. When my Korg is set at A434 the open notes show tuned. So 6 hertz flat.

I am an experienced player and practice 1.5 to 2 hrs per day.

Any help hugely appreciated as it is unplayable right now.

[Patrase]

I think Miraphone offers two lengths of the main tuning slide on a few of their instruments. You might have the long version on yours, so would be a relatively simple fix to swap it for the shorter one. Have a stare and compare yours to the various versions, some seem to have longer ones than others. Maybe order a 443 version. https://www.miraphone.de/instruments/fi ... _91?cat=34" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Cobra1502]

If I had the 443 tuning slide by accident - wouldn’t it be shorter and not longer? Wouldn’t I be able to tune to A443 vs only A435?

Joe, am I to understand all shortening was on tuning slide vs the main tuba plumbing.

Thanks for all replies so far. Still hoping for ideas before I cut new horn.

[k001k47]

If I had the 443 tuning slide by accident - wouldn’t it be shorter and not longer? Wouldn’t I be able to tune to A443 vs only A435?

Joe, am I to understand all shortening was on tuning slide vs the main tuba plumbing.

Thanks for all replies so far. Still hoping for ideas before I cut new horn.

They are saying you may have the long, lower pitch horn, and to look into replacing it with the 443

[Patrase]

If it is 6hz flat with the slide all the way in measure how much slide you need to pull out to make it a further 6hz flat. How far did you have to pull it? I think that is a very rough guide as to how much you will need to cut it, but a genuine expert, not me, will give better advice. I would want to be able to play it 442, so also see what pull it takes to play it 8hz flat.

Is the whole thing in tune with itself? If yes that’s something that makes it worth keeping and fixing.

[MaryAnn]

Sounds like the first one he received that wasn't what he ordered, played in tune. I wonder what the difference is.

[Cobra1502]

MaryAnn. You are correct the first one was excellent. Had about 3/4” times Ning slide left when tuned at A440. Unfortunately I had to return it so they could order the right one. I am stumped as to what is different as I understand that Miraphone only changes the tuning slide with different tunings. I don’t think they make a A435 so I don’t think I have the wrong one. The fix maybe getting their A443 slide.

[bgozdowski]

As far as my experience with the 191, they're all out of tune. I've worked with several schools in the past, that own this model. Every single example I have played has similar tuning issues. If the Bb in the staff is placed in tune, then the entire low octave Bb partial sits 20-30 cents flat. Save your time and frustration. Just buy a one of the Hagan's, or an Eastman. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a good 186.

[peterbas]

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[bort]

a seventy-degrees F. room...

C'mon Joe -- he's going to need a BBb room, not an F room.

[Cobra1502]

Thanks for all the advice. I am working with Miraphone to get an A443 slide. Hopefully I can get this quickly. Re temperature for practicing I have noticed that the 191 is really sensitive to temp. Even up here in Canada we set our room temperatures at 70F. We don’t live in igloos and have furnaces and AC. Lol.

[peterbas]

Deleted

[Cobra1502]

Based on the discussions here re temperature I found the following site http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/temperature.html" target="_blank

I have provided this information (assuming its correct) so others can answer how much they need to cut or add based on being out of tune as well as see my progress on my problem.
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The summary of this page is that a change of 1 degree F = 1.7 cents (1 degree C = 3 cents). On a tuba the second-valve tubing length is about 0.0595 times the overall effective length of the instrument. 0.175% of the overall effective length is about 3% of the second-valve tubing length. On a BBb tuba the second valve tubing is about 6 inches (15 cm.) on each side. Three percent of that length is 0.18" or 0.45 cm. That is the amount of main tuning slide adjustment theoretically needed on a BBb tuba to compensate for a one-degree (C) change in temperature.
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So, 1 degree F = 1.7 cents or a change in main tuning slide of 0.18". Why is this relative? My tuba room (and tuba) sits at 65F. When I play I set the temp to 70F and I assume (need to verify) warms to 80F after 30 mins or so of practice (I blow a lot of hot air!). This 15F change in temp is 25.5 cents (1.7x15) or 1.5" pull (3" in length) (15F x 5/9 = 8.3C, 8.3C x 0.18 = 1.494"). So if I tune at 65F I would need 1.5" of main tuning slide less than at 80F.

If you recall I said I was out 20 to 30 cents - when tuning BBb. I assume the differences was temperature related. With a shallow mouthpiece and tuning when I have practiced for 1 hr, I can get within 5 to 10 cents with no lip and in tune with. However, this is with slide all the way in. Miraphone has offered a 443Hz tuning slide which is good for 11.76 cents (about 2.5 inches shorter or 1.25" pull). This should put it very close to where I need to be and perhaps give me a little extra.

As always, I welcome comments.

[Ltrain]

Sorry to add to the rabble, but last Saturday I played my community band section mate’s 191 up and down the range (with a tuner) and I was blown away by the intonation on his example. Only 2 notes stuck out: D below staff was sharp and needed a manageable slide tug (or played 3) and pedal C (1234 on his 4-valver) was unsurprisingly very sharp (fixed via extreme slide-pull or 3rd valve false tone).

Just my $0.02 for those that blame that particular model.

[Cobra1502]

Ltrain thanks for reply. I certainly don’t blame all 191s. This one is very well in tune with itself. As I said the one I played last year was beautifully in tune across the range. In fact best horn I have ever played. Based on the excellent reviews on this board from many 191 players is what made me buy one in the first place. Just something happening with this new one. I am sure it will be figured out.

[barry grrr-ero]

Word to the wise: if everything your doing to correct the situation doesn't work, contact Bloke. Take his advice.

[groovlow]

Reference additional tuners or 440 sources
Good luck

[Cobra1502]

I did post an update to this topic elsewhere but to add closure to this thread - the A443 tuning slide did the trick. Love, love this horn. Generally in tune across the range. Slots well and really produce the sound. Low notes are deep and full sounding and the high notes are also easy and sound good (my regular practicing range is is bass clef peddle G to F above the staff).

I do have to adjust main tuning about 3/4" from when the horn (and me) is cold to warm. It also takes a little time to get use to the angle of the valves and sore wrists. I use a tuba stand and play the tuba at an angle which eliminated the wrist issues. I am also surprised that despite playing it 10 to 20 hrs per week - I only have to oil the rotors every 3 to 4 weeks. Even then I probably could have gone a few weeks longer. Compared to my Besson - where I need to oil every few weeks and my Yamaha 621 which is weekly.

[Worth]

Over time, I'm watching my own pitch (on all of my instruments) generally drop a bit...

This is sort of tongue in cheek, but like you I dropped a considerable amount of weight and found that I'm not pulling my MTS quite as far out these days. Breathing in general is freer and much less restricted as a result. As you said, I figure it's about relaxing more in general, but I wonder if anyone has ever conducted research to explore the relationship between weight and tendency to pinch things more and play sharp due to breathing restriction although there are most likely too many variables for a study that would conclude anything with reliability. I do find that these days I'm more comfortable in the old tux (or jeans) and it's easier to relax and breathe properly with less bodily restriction and the restriction and discomfort of tight clothes.