How good is good enough?

[CranstonTuba]

I’ve got the Mackaclone 410GB. And I’ll say this;

I owned an Alexander 163 in college, and my goodness was that the most beautiful sounding instrument I’ve ever owned. Now that I’m playing on a chinese horn that plays in tune and puts out plenty of sound, I can’t believe the crazy fingerings I used to use to play that Alex. And the amount of time I used to spend making sure I had just the right fingering combination on any given passage. As far as I’m concerned my current set up is more than good enough.

If I had the money I would buy a brand new 5v GB 163.

[Donn]

Could an instrument be too good? I mean,
- we typical regard the best players as the best arbiters of what's good - implicitly of course, what's good for them.
- as a player, I'm not all that much like them, so would I be better off with a tuba that isn't as "good"?

Unfortunately I'm unable to investigate this hypothesis fully, and anyway I'm certainly better off with a $1400 tuba than a $14,000 tuba, all things considered. But anecdotally - a couple years after I started playing the tuba, I got myself a Miraphone 190 BBb. I kind of regret that, wonder if I'd have done better to stay with my Olds. Too good?

[CranstonTuba]

Could an instrument be too good?

I’m fully on board that an instrument can be too good for a particular person. I was at the Shires factory playing a Q series bass bone. I was having a blast and while even a Q is out of my price range for a bass trombone (as I rarely play bass parts), I could use that horn and feel good about it. The person giving me the tour pieces together a custom. Man I had no idea what to do with it. It was so nice, and so open. My response was “Ok, this is like me driving a Bugatti around the block. I know enough to know how good it is but I can’t open it up and showcase its maneuverability”.

[iiipopes]

When I was a young sprout, the conventional wisdom imparted to my folks was to purchase the best instrument available consistent with budget and a used name-brand was always better than a new no-name brand. I don't know how valid that advice is anymore, as my instrument preferences don't lend themselves anymore to used instruments, as I have all the used instruments that I have space for, and what I desire in instruments for the benefit of my aging hands, shoulders, embouchures, etc., don't exist used.

For example, as a teenager, I wanted a really nice electric guitar. My folks and I searched and found an early '70's Les Paul Deluxe for about half of retail, with a little wear where the forearm turned the gold top green at the edge. I didn't care. Great guitar. I later traded it for a Les Paul Custom for a great deal, not letting anyone know how little I got the Deluxe for, so came out ahead.

The fad of the market also has a lot to do with it. Anybody can search this forum to see which tubas were popular one year, only to be never mentioned again the next. I had a 1935 Gibson L-00 which with repairs I had @ $400 in it, and at the time, that was considered almost upside-down price/value. Then Gibson re-issued it, the value of mine skyrocketed, and I sold it for enough to get a new J-45, going against the conventional wisdom, because it happened to be the one specimen that after playing literally hundreds of them over the years had the right balance of tone, action, and mojo for what I play, and still do, and has earned its keep gigging. Go figure!

And with inflation, even my Bessophone, counting the initial purchase price, the cost of the replacement bell and installation, other repairs, etc., is in the money (in the stock market slang meaning).

The point of the digression: the acquisition of good instruments cannot be considered in pedantic terms. It is a function of the market, availability of instruments, an educated and experienced purchaser, and sometimes a large dose of dumb luck. Just like every person wears a different sized suit, every person sounds best on a particular instrument and may not sound good on another. Try before you buy. Play on!

[NDCompuGeek]

I've got a Barrington tuba I paid less than $1.5k for new, and I've got a York Master tuba. I haven't played for years (I'm trying to get music back into my life after a series of personal issues), so at this point the Barrington is sounding pretty good for my skill level. To me, at this time and at the skill level I have regained, I don't think I would sound any different on any horn, no matter how well-designed well-made or well-playing. I would like to get better and eventually notice that the Barrington is holding me back or I actually sound better on other tubas, but until that point, OK is good enough for me and my current situation.

[toobagrowl]

Speaking of Shires (expensive) trombones......

There is an elderly man in my area who bought an expensive Shires 2-trigger bass bone years ago. He is in the local community band & orchestra, but you will not see him in any quintet or at any paid gigs. And on the other hand, there is a younger guy who also plays an expensive 2-trigger Shires bass bone (different model) who lives about an hour away who is really good; he plays in at least one small pro orchestra, does paid gigs, and teaches at a small college.

As far as a "good enough" tuba, guess it depends on who you ask. For me, I can 'deal with' a few pitch quirks as long as they are correctable in some way. And the tuba should have a nice full sound that I like, good response, and good build quality, including good valves and slides

[MaryAnn]

I'd change that to "more than is needed" rather than "too good." And if the price is right, i see nothing wrong with getting more than is needed. I do it a lot myself; I appreciate not having to fight to play in tune or get a decent tone.

[Three Valves]

The law of diminishing returns...

Would I pay 200% more if it made me sound 50% better??

Maybe...

400% more??

NO!!

[bort]

"Better" is the enemy of "Good enough"

[Donn]

I'd change that to "more than is needed" rather than "too good." And if the price is right, i see nothing wrong with getting more than is needed. I do it a lot myself; I appreciate not having to fight to play in tune or get a decent tone.

If the "too good" idea is the one I brought up, that isn't what it's about. My own anecdotal example might be a good one, if you subscribe to the common belief that my old BBb Miraphone 190 was no great shakes at playing in tune. I don't know - I sure wasn't experienced enough to notice. I just had got me a great big orchestral Kaiser - that probably for me really wasn't as "good" as my 3V Olds "student model", though it would have been much more "good" than the Olds in the hands of a more accomplished player. I suppose the same comparison would apply to my current BBb tubas, a King 1240 or 2340 or whatever it is and a big old Holton 109: the King is easier to play, in tune and everything, so is it better? No, but it would be better for, uh, someone else.

This isn't as obvious with tubas as it is with some other choices. Bloke's example with flutes was a good one, if you sift out the usual digression into Chinese bla bla - open hole is "better", but it isn't something they give you to make it easier to play. Saxophone mouthpieces.

[Jerryleejr]

I guess my question is when the 4K instruments are playing 95% as well as the 14K instruments will we see a market shift in price? I doubt the High end will come down but we are seeing the low end increase....

JJ

[MaryAnn]

I'd change that to "more than is needed" rather than "too good." And if the price is right, i see nothing wrong with getting more than is needed. I do it a lot myself; I appreciate not having to fight to play in tune or get a decent tone.

If the "too good" idea is the one I brought up, that isn't what it's about. My own anecdotal example might be a good one, if you subscribe to the common belief that my old BBb Miraphone 190 was no great shakes at playing in tune. I don't know - I sure wasn't experienced enough to notice. I just had got me a great big orchestral Kaiser - that probably for me really wasn't as "good" as my 3V Olds "student model", though it would have been much more "good" than the Olds in the hands of a more accomplished player. I suppose the same comparison would apply to my current BBb tubas, a King 1240 or 2340 or whatever it is and a big old Holton 109: the King is easier to play, in tune and everything, so is it better? No, but it would be better for, uh, someone else.

This isn't as obvious with tubas as it is with some other choices. Bloke's example with flutes was a good one, if you sift out the usual digression into Chinese bla bla - open hole is "better", but it isn't something they give you to make it easier to play. Saxophone mouthpieces.

Well, I'd say that my violin matched my talent at the time, which was easily in the first violin section of a regional orchestra. I never had to "learn" intonation. It was there to start with, and with a violin you're not stuck with what the tubing will allow.
Since my change to brass....I have bought pro level instruments because I can tell the difference. That doesn't mean I can't play reasonably well on a student tuba, or a student horn, but it means that I prefer the ease of the pro level. I can't get out of my NStar what a high level player can, but I can get more out of it than I can a lesser instrument. I rejected several pro level (French) horns because they were either ergonomically difficult or not in tune with themselves. I have a pro level oboe because why not? I got a great one used for less than I would have paid for a new student level one, and it has a much nicer tone and easier reach for my small hands. So I don't think I'm arguing with you but just extending my own POV. On a different point, those of us who can't get the most out of that level of instrument may be a valuable source of income for the makers of those instruments.

[iiipopes]

To tie two previous posts together, a Miraphone 186 C tuba with a Bb main tuning slide extender is not 'too good'.

Or to say it more bluntly: it is bad.

[Jerryleejr]

The law of diminishing returns...

Would I pay 200% more if it made me sound 50% better??

Maybe...

400% more??

NO!!

I think that is the point. Will a $40k tuba make anyone play 10x better than a $4k tuba? No. When I watched that video, it made me really question my desire for a top tier horn. A great horn may make me sound somewhat better, it may have somewhat better intonation, and it may be somewhat easier to play. How much better? 15%? 20%? Maybe. Is an $1800 Miraclone good enough for me and what I do? Probably so.

Fortunately I have my top tier horn, I did not pay top tier price for it. But Im looking for a 2nd horn and wrestling with that top tier price lol...

JJ

[Alex C]

How many full time performers play Chinese made tubas? The only one I know is Porkorny who plays a BMB sometimes. There are a few others, I think. Is the run-of-the-mill Chinese tuba good enough for professionals? Based on what professionals play I would say no.

If your standard is lower than a professional, by all means, play what feels good to you. But understand, the highest goals in music require the highest quality professional gear. Most of us never reach our goals, so the lower you set your goals, the lower your results will be. not everybody wants the same results.

[Dan Tuba]

intonation/response/valves/slides - in that order...regardless of price, country of origin, or pitchman, or motivation for posting

I own a BMB J765 BBb tuba. It's a very nice tuba, and it's not too much work to play. However, my employer provided me with a MW 195P to use on jobs. All of the above attributes that Bloke mentioned above are better on the MW 195P. Do I ever choose to use my BMB J765 BBb tuba at work, no...because it requires more work to perform. Could I use the BMB J765 BBb tuba at work...yes, and I could "probably" perform reasonably well. However, why would I want to work harder if I don't have to. After many years of "learning" to overcome "quirks" on different tubas, I really think that you you should pick an instrument that affords you the opportunity to focus on the music. All tubas have "quirks," however some have fewer quirks than others to overcome. You should try as many tubas, regardless of the key, or country of origin, in order to find what works for you. Perhaps if you are going to play "professionally," the question shouldn't be "Can I get by playing on such and such?" Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is " Should I play on such and such if it inhibits my ability to perform my best and offer the best possible musical product while I have the means to do otherwise ?"

[Three Valves]

I played a Miraphone 186 BBb recently for the first time.

That was good enough.