Why do tuba players have bad time?

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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by toobagrowl »

bloke wrote:The question is obviously this:

Lacquered time or silver time?
I like both, but do prefer the easier maintenance of lacquered time. If my lacquered time gets bad, I can 'touch it up' by spot-lacquering :mrgreen:

michaelrmurrin wrote:

Many people consider the horn to be the hardest instrument in the orchestra. So saying "the tuba isn't as hard as the horn" is a weak argument. Slurred playing and legato playing are much more difficult on the tuba than on any other brass or wind instrument (aside from horn and legato-tongue trombone playing). Playing fast scales (or any fast notes) on the CC tuba in the low range is very difficult because of the extreme amount of air required. The tuba is a pretty difficult instrument. It is not laughably easy compared to other instruments.
^ This. Tuba music is generally much easier than other instruments. But to play the tuba at a high level is something completely different. I'd say the tuba is the second hardest brass instrument to play well, at a high level, after the F horn. Tuba has the largest mpc, largest bore, the most tubing to blow through than all other brass horns.
People are impressed when they hear tuba played very well, with precision, clarity and musically with a great sound because it is harder to do that on tuba than most instruments :!:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Three Valves »

All I know is, oboe, bassoon and bass clarinet were a one way ticket to All State Band where I come from... it didn’t have to be laughably easy, they just had to show up!! :tuba:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Reptilian »

"College level"

Links to Katherine Needleman :lol: :roll:

(yes, I understand that this might be standard rep. for your average undergrad oboe, but just because my [allstate] high school student is working on the Barat doesn't mean anyone will mistake her recording for Bobissimo)
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by paulver »

Interesting topic and discussion.
When I was in college, taking methods classes, we were taught that some instruments...... by their very "nature/construction" were not considered "agile" instruments. As soon as that was said by the instructor, recordings of some of those instruments were played for the class that shot that theory right in the butt!!!

Just like any other instrument, the tuba/tuba music, has gone through years of "evolution" that challenges original thought, intention, and purpose. Depending on what the job is at hand........ solo work, or providing the bottom sound, just to complete a chord in a small or large ensemble, the tubaist must compensate for any difficulty of rhythm, timing, intonation, sound delay from the ensemble, sound production delay of the tuba, location within the ensemble, etc., to fit that particular task. Sometimes it's simple whole notes or half notes, played at a slow tempo. At other times, rhythms, key signatures, and speed will obviously create more difficulty. This is all true for any instrument. However, the "agility" factor naturally built into the instrument determines how much "effort" the player needs to inject into his/her performance of a piece. Many times, the tuba part is intended to imitate a string bass part or an electric bass line. Those two instruments are what I'd call "fairly agile" instruments.

Sometimes, as has been discussed before on this site, the tuba part might be more easily played on a more fitting tuba...... i.e.... Eb or F, rather than a BBb or CC. Translation........ wrong instrument for the job!!

Different levels of ability, accomplishment, sense of timing, sense of pitch, awareness, etc. on the players' part enter into the discussion, too.
Sometimes the simplest parts are the most difficult to play because they are exposed/showcased in the most delicate spots in the music for a given ensemble and must be exact and precise.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, obviously, different requirements written into the music, require different levels of ability, agility, adaptation, etc., of the player in order to accomplish the sound/effect that the music/composer is wanting to be produced. If the player isn't able to overcome the "agility factor" built into the tuba..... or any other instrument, then the timing, pitch, and other elements are going to suffer. I don't think that any one statement about level of "ease" or "difficulty" can be used to describe the tuba, tuba parts, or tuba players, without consideration of several other factors. Timing, good or bad, can be tied to any number of things. If I had to pick only one, then I'd go with awareness of what is going on around you in the ensemble. The right note in the wrong place....... is still a mistake!!

Also, when a properly rosined bow is drawn across a string, there is automatically going to be some sort of sound. When air passing through two lips placed on a mouthpiece is being used to produced music........... there is absolutely no guarantee of a sound.... proper or otherwise!!!
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by GC »

What is it with oboe players so often being geniuses at phrasing? Other than the fact that they can play ludicrously long phrases and still have air left over . . .
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Three Valves »

It helps when your “mouthpiece” resembles a McDonalds coffee straw/stirrer.... :roll:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Leland »

nworbekim wrote:if by time you mean keeping the beat? in music school, i was admonished for "dragging" the beat when i was a freshman and taught to anticipate the beat slightly because i sat in the back row and there was so much tubing to push the air through.
This part here ^^^^^

We can only guess as to how we're heard up front. It means the conductor/instructor has to be able to pick out the sound and let us know whether we're late or early.

From the podium, it's pretty hard to hear the bass voices when the full ensemble is playing. In most rehearsal rooms, it's close to impossible, at least until the bass is WAY too late. So the conductor needs to come up with a good way of ensuring that everyone's sound arrives on time.

Over months and years of NOT being told that we're late, then being late becomes the method that we know best.

I wish I could find the video of a very famous conductor -- think Leopold Stokowski-level famous -- rehearsing another famous orchestra for a guest concert. First downbeat he gave, the bass strings were "late", and the sound was a bit shrill (not unlike most orchestras you'd hear). He stopped immediately. Rather than telling the basses they were late, he told the rest of the strings to wait until they heard the basses. He gave the downbeat again, and *bingo* -- now the sound bloomed from the bottom up. Fantastic improvement.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by GC »

I certainly wasn't. I just spent an hour reading articles on the subject, and they're enlightening.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by tmmcas1 »

bloke wrote:
GC wrote:What is it with oboe players so often being geniuses at phrasing? Other than the fact that they can play ludicrously long phrases and still have air left over . . .
Some chide Marcel Tabuteau's (father of the American school of oboe playing) system for playing musically/emotionally as "mechanical", but many oboists use it...and it works. Most tuba players - I'd wager - aren't even aware of the system.
When I lived in North Carolina I went and regularly played excerpts for Joe Robinson in Durham, NC. He retired to Durham after a brilliant career as Principal Oboe with the New York Philharmonic. He was one of Tabuteau’s last long term students. To say my lessons were humbling would be kind. Everything was too loud. Everything thing was boring. Everything needed work. I’m grateful for the journey Joe sent me on. Having a non-tuba players ears critique your playing is pretty crucial if you want someone who doesn’t play the tuba to hire you for a job.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by BAtlas »

In my experience, when I've met tuba players with bad time I felt like it had more to do with response than with that individual's ability to perceive time.

Going to continue eating my popcorn now...
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Ulli »

Bassists, tuba or string bass, are the menials of an orchestra.
And yes, I know that. I play booth instruments.
I am not capable to play other instruments- but I like it to play tuba/string bass :tuba:
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by jperry1466 »

Late to the discussion, but my experience is a bit different. As a jazz bass player in the 60s, I was taught that keeping time was my job, not the drummer's. I was taught to subdivide the beat all the time and thus became somewhat of a human metronome. Considering the length of tubing in the instrument, I taught my tuba students to play on the "top side" of the beat rather than the back side and to "push" (not rush) the band to keep the beat steady.

In the community bands I play in, those little short pieces of tubing called trumpets tend to drag, unless they have 16th notes, in which case they rush way ahead of the band. And of course, their releases on long notes and phrase ends have to be a little bit longer and later than everyone else. It bugs me that so many school band directors let their trumpets dominate and even overpower the balance of the ensemble, and when I am judging UIL contest or festivals, I let them know my feelings about balance. They say they understand the pyramid of sound; their pyramids are just upside-down.

Sorry, I saw the mention of trumpets above and had to rant just a little.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by timothy42b »

I do think even good time fades as we age unless we continue to consciously reinforce it.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by GC »

If you're getting complaints about being behind, try to be more aggressive with the placement of your attacks. Play a touch ahead of the beat and don't let other players pull you back, and that doesn't mean rush the tempo. Practicing with a metronome (not performance) can also be enlightening about bad rhythmic habits you may not even know you have. It showed me that I have a habit of slightly delaying re-entry after I take a quick breath, for example, and now I work constantly to avoid it.

I went through a period with the leader of a big (actually medium) band I played bass with for over 40 years where he complained constantly about me being behind the beat. One night I played way ahead of the beat so much that the drummer (who sat beside my speaker cabinet) turned around and told him that he was nuts, than I was ridiculously ahead of the beat, and he still wouldn't believe it. He was listening to room reflections of the bottom end and not hearing the direct sound at all, so of course there was delay. I put the speaker behind him and he finally had to believe it. Room acoustics and bloom can be the enemy of tempo, too, not just behind-the-beat playing and slow response of a big tuba. When it's both, it gets worse . . .
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by roughrider »

tmmcas1 wrote:
bloke wrote:
GC wrote:What is it with oboe players so often being geniuses at phrasing? Other than the fact that they can play ludicrously long phrases and still have air left over . . .
Some chide Marcel Tabuteau's (father of the American school of oboe playing) system for playing musically/emotionally as "mechanical", but many oboists use it...and it works. Most tuba players - I'd wager - aren't even aware of the system.
When I lived in North Carolina I went and regularly played excerpts for Joe Robinson in Durham, NC. He retired to Durham after a brilliant career as Principal Oboe with the New York Philharmonic. He was one of Tabuteau’s last long term students. To say my lessons were humbling would be kind. Everything was too loud. Everything thing was boring. Everything needed work. I’m grateful for the journey Joe sent me on. Having a non-tuba players ears critique your playing is pretty crucial if you want someone who doesn’t play the tuba to hire you for a job.
Excellent post!
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by k001k47 »

the elephant wrote:
Watchman wrote:Why do tuba players have bad time?
Why do crazy people major in psychology? :tuba:
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Lee Stofer »

Time is a combination of mental and physical exertion. If a person is well-trained, focused and plays with intensity (regardless of dynamic level), they can play the tuba with as good agility as is needed to have good time. That was William Bell's silver bullet. I understand that he had a good tone, not a particularly good high range, but after his years in the Sousa Band, his rhythm and timing was laser-accurate, making him a most sought-after player. Having been a working bass player for nearly 40 years now has been a real plus for me, as it reinforced the responsibility of time-keeper to such an extent that I cannot help but do this on tuba as well. Don't just practice until you can "play the notes," but practice instead to to shape the size and length of notes, subdivide like your life depends upon it, practice dynamics, phrases, crescendos and decrescendos to where you're really accurately and completely doing them instead of ignoring them or giving them a nod, in short, own the piece of music like you are a musician, not just a tuba operator.
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by Levaix »

bloke wrote:
BAtlas wrote:In my experience, when I've met tuba players with bad time I felt like it had more to do with response than with that individual's ability to perceive time.

Going to continue eating my popcorn now...
You may be correct, but "not being aware of what must be done to compensate (whatever is causing the issue) for response" (to me) also indicates "not listening to what is occurring within one's own music", and "not listening to what is occurring within one's own music" is almost certainly going to result in bad time - and several types of bad time: rests that are too long or too short ( ' could involve a millisecond...' could involve the typical "the tuba player is lost again" or "the tuba player has turned the beat around again" thing - the last of these being the common-to-tuba-players thing about which Paul Hindemith was mocking in the second movement of his Tuba Sonata), overly-deliberate breaths that ruin pulse, and - the thing on which I believe you are commenting: following the music, rather than being inside the music.
As much as there can be a "correct" answer to a question like this, this is it. Are there one or more physical reasons that playing a tuba is logistically more challenging to play in time than, say, a kazoo? Probably. So what? That's like saying since a pickup truck is harder to drive than a bicycle, it's okay to drift into other lanes while driving. If anything, it's the opposite; because of the potential impact (ha!) it requires more responsibility to pay attention and compensate.

(The other unfortunate thing is that there are significantly more tuba players that did not choose the instrument compared to our other brass siblings. I'm not exactly sure why recruiting your worst trumpet or euphonium player into a position that provides a backbone to the band is so appealing to school band directors, but just imagine if they did the same thing in the opposite direction.)
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Re: Why do tuba players have bad time?

Post by The Brute Squad »

Levaix wrote:I'm not exactly sure why recruiting your worst trumpet or euphonium player into a position that provides a backbone to the band is so appealing to school band directors, but just imagine if they did the same thing in the opposite direction.)
I always thought the favorite tactic was "have the fat kid play it." I'm pretty sure that's why I was recruited, though I probably would've been the worst trumpet had I tried it anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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