Alto-altissimo - the secret no one will tell you??

[2ba4t]

Every tuba player wants to be able to show off sometimes. Although never written, the highest notes - squeeking up to the x harmonics can really liven up a solo.

Of course Bydlo is sitting there grinning at everyone. But on a bass or contrabass tuba, it sounds like a hippo doing ballet even when played by a genius . [Come on admit it. It is falsetto.] Ravel was writing for the tiny C baritone French six valve job. Wessex now make them. Obviously a euphonium does fine.

So, how can the average player achieve a high range.

Learn from jazz trumpeters. Altissimo notes are really easy - if you do not use your lips!? Duh???

The secret no one else will tell you:

Roll in your lips as tight as at all possible so that as far as feasible - only the skin above and below the lips, and not the red, seems to be touching the mouthpiece. (This does not really happen, but it should feel like that.) Then kick from your diaphragm forcing a blast of air out, this is compressed by your very tight embouchure.

Do this without a mouthpiece or horn. You will get a sort of squeeky buzz.

That is the secret.

Now play a note that you can reach with your proper embouchure like that. It should sound utterly horrible. Keep working at it. Within a few minutes/hours/days/years it will sound great. Now you experiment with other notes up to a triple high 'C' or whatever. Most people find they can play a fifth higher immediately.

Now go through the 'proper' range practice, which is, as others have said, slow and beautiful slurs between harmonics of each valve combination. All the way up and right down. A quick version of this is the 'see-saw'. On a Bb tuba, play the middle ledger line D, slur cleanly and in perfect tune to the F above, slur back down to the D, then down to the Bb, then back to the D. That is one see-saw. Do this on every valve combination throughout the entire range you can reach. Obviously the octave between BBBb and BBb (or whatever you want to call 'em) will be a challenge.

Now speed up without sacrificing clarity or tuning. When you can practically lip trill between all the 'slots' you will have chops made of steel, the tone of an angel and no neighbours.

What is happening? Your lips buzz at a high speed which activates the molecules immediately outside them in the mouthpiece.

I usually use the example of the fat guy leaping into the end of a packed subway car just as the doors shut. He jolts forward the guy standing next to him, who bumps forward into the next guy and so on - up the car. At the other end, the last poor dude is slammed against the wall and he bounces back sending another wave of energy back.

Your buzz is the fat guy crashing in. As above, it makes the molecules vibrate immediately outside your lips in the mouthpiece. These bump into the molecules immediately in front of them. And these bump into the molecules immediately in front of them etc etc. This is called a sound wave. It is a jolting wave of energy and if the corridor of air in your tuba is perfect (proper shape/profile and no interruptions such as leaks or sudden narrowings) then a perfect sound wave is made.

This is within the protected air pressure of the tubing. As soon as this hits the outside's much higher, atmospheric air pressure at the bell, the sound wave jolts against this [the far end of that subway car] and bounces straight back to your lips. All this is in a nanosecond. The jolting sound wave coming back from the bell hits your lips and meets and must fit perfectly with that next buzz leaving your lips at the next nanosecond. This happens in a good instrument because centuries of trial and error have taught people how to build different profiles for different sounds. Now of course they use science.

The perfect shape ensures that the points where two opposite 'pushing' waves from your lips and from the bell - meet - the nodes - and where the sudden lack of 'push' occur - antinodes - are exactly right for that horn.

The relevance of this is that a really good profile [bugle] allows all the partials - harmonics to ring out- right the way up - alto altissimo. So when testing a horn try those show off high partials. Any problems - take out your tapered cork [ a must] and pull out the last tuning slide and bung the horn up and blow. Any hissing means air is escaping, the column of air interrupted and it is the wrong one for you. And many brand new horns hiss like a snake.

Listen to yourself as you practise - can help.

Good luck.

[timothy42b]

bloke "not only high/low/fast/loud/soft, but also blowing out matches with intense/very short percussive blatts...yes, with a tuba "

Wait, you can do this? I've never succeeded but also never tried hard, thinking it can't be done. Tell me more!

[MaryAnn]

Roger Lewis has posted the exact same thing and it is often referred to here.
This is also one of the concepts in the Balanced Embouchure development system by Jeff Smiley.
It is apparently even in the Farkas book if one is able to translate muscle names etc into action.

[Peach]

Ok, I think, only one does not "kick from the diaphragm"...

[Reptilian]

Ok, I think, only one does not "kick from the diaphragm"...

I was about to mention this, too; muscles only work one way. I'm sure he meant kick from the abdomen.

[2ba4t]

'He' meant 'kick' metaphorically. Otherwise, you might dent the tuba.
The diaphragm is a sheath of muscle. It tightens when you breath (or kick) out. Your abs - and I have absolutely none - are not involved directly in this.

Anyway, it was only a suggestion - at least somebody read it!

[Reptilian]

'He' meant 'kick' metaphorically. Otherwise, you might dent the tuba.
The diaphragm is a sheath of muscle. It tightens when you breath (or kick) out. Your abs - and I have absolutely none - are not involved directly in this.

Anyway, it was only a suggestion - at least somebody read it!

I don't think anyone here was confused about the use of "kick."

Regarding the usage of muscles, I'm afraid you have it backwards. As I mentioned, muscles only work one way. The diaphragm is used only in the act of inhalation. Exhalation is performed with the abdominal muscles and a few smaller surrounding ones. People are always saying breathe with the diaphragm breathe with the diaphragm, but that's only half of the action.

Doesn't really matter to the main point of the thread, but I believe it still warrants clarification.

[2ba4t]

Thank you so much. I have been under the wrong impression completely. I see that the diaphragm muscles contract to draw in air. The compression - to push it out - when relaxed, as in sleep, is simply the elastic nature of the diaphragm gently returning to its natural, upper position. When we breathe out in a controlled way or very strongly the compression is done by the abdominal and other muscles.

Thanks. Now I have discovered that I have abs. I'm superman!

[2ba4t]

Also:
I just found this again. I humbly feel that this man is not only a phenomenal musician but a quite remarkable teacher! Stuff he says actually works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujrTDbn ... S0&index=2" target="_blank

The following is not pretty but a good description of the [possibly] right embouchure altissimo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gF2lfyLxVQ" target="_blank

[timothy42b]

Regarding the usage of muscles, I'm afraid you have it backwards. As I mentioned, muscles only work one way. The diaphragm is used only in the act of inhalation. Exhalation is performed with the abdominal muscles and a few smaller surrounding ones.
Doesn't really matter to the main point of the thread, but I believe it still warrants clarification.

This is a nitpick but it has some application.

A relaxed diaphragm will push air out until the "resting neutral point" is reached. That point is important to some teachers and not taught at all by others. After that point the abdominal and intercostal muscles will be required to activate. Some teachers like to play in that regime, others avoid it.

However. If the abdominal muscles are activated (contracting) more than is required for the volume of air, then the diaphragm DOES function in exhalation, but in reverse: it contracts to fight the exhale. This can happen in pianissimo playing (does not apply to tuba of course!) any time someone is told they must support just as strongly in quiet playing as in loud.

[Reptilian]

Regarding the usage of muscles, I'm afraid you have it backwards. As I mentioned, muscles only work one way. The diaphragm is used only in the act of inhalation. Exhalation is performed with the abdominal muscles and a few smaller surrounding ones.
Doesn't really matter to the main point of the thread, but I believe it still warrants clarification.

This is a nitpick but it has some application.

A relaxed diaphragm will push air out until the "resting neutral point" is reached. That point is important to some teachers and not taught at all by others. After that point the abdominal and intercostal muscles will be required to activate. Some teachers like to play in that regime, others avoid it.

However. If the abdominal muscles are activated (contracting) more than is required for the volume of air, then the diaphragm DOES function in exhalation, but in reverse: it contracts to fight the exhale. This can happen in pianissimo playing (does not apply to tuba of course!) any time someone is told they must support just as strongly in quiet playing as in loud.

Sure, there is definitely a bit of a "hand off" at some point in a blow, I certainly agree, but I'm not so sure that the starting point of it is caused by relaxed diaphragm or simply because of all the positive air pressure inside a fully filled up set of lungs (filled up by the negative pressure caused by the action of the diaphragm).

In other words, "letting go" of the diaphragm will allow the air to blow out under its own pressure like releasing the end of a balloon, but the air is not coming out because the anything that diaphragm is doing, it comes out because of what the diaphragm is not* doing.

Then after the air pressure lowers there's that hand off with the abdominal muscles coming in to play. Completely agree with you on that one!

[timothy42b]

In other words, "letting go" of the diaphragm will allow the air to blow out under its own pressure like releasing the end of a balloon, but the air is not coming out because the anything that diaphragm is doing, it comes out because of what the diaphragm is not* doing.

Then after the air pressure lowers there's that hand off with the abdominal muscles coming in to play. Completely agree with you on that one!

But I'm saying more than that.

I'm saying that air will come out without tightening the abdominal muscles, if one is above the neutral point anyway.

I'm saying that IF you insist on tightening your abdominal muscles in a quiet passage, the diaphragm will contract, trying to pull air back in. It has to, in order to fight playing too loudly.

[Reptilian]

In other words, "letting go" of the diaphragm will allow the air to blow out under its own pressure like releasing the end of a balloon, but the air is not coming out because the anything that diaphragm is doing, it comes out because of what the diaphragm is not* doing.

Then after the air pressure lowers there's that hand off with the abdominal muscles coming in to play. Completely agree with you on that one!

But I'm saying more than that.

I'm saying that air will come out without tightening the abdominal muscles, if one is above the neutral point anyway.

No I totally got that part about playing without abdominal tension--I'm with you. I was using the term "hand off" to describe what you're referring to as a neutral point--the point where one might need to start adding abdominal pressure once the positive pressure of a full set of lungs is reduced enough to be ineffective on its own.

I'm saying that IF you insist on tightening your abdominal muscles in a quiet passage, the diaphragm will contract, trying to pull air back in. It has to, in order to fight playing too loudly.

You lost me on this point here. Engaging your abdomen isn't some on switch to blast. The original point of all of this is that you do not engage your diaphragm to blow out. That's all. You might employ it to control your output a little in tandem with your abdomen and the already built up positive pressure, but that's not the same thing as "blowing."

[Peach]

In other words, "letting go" of the diaphragm will allow the air to blow out under its own pressure like releasing the end of a balloon, but the air is not coming out because the anything that diaphragm is doing, it comes out because of what the diaphragm is not* doing.

Then after the air pressure lowers there's that hand off with the abdominal muscles coming in to play. Completely agree with you on that one!

But I'm saying more than that.

I'm saying that air will come out without tightening the abdominal muscles, if one is above the neutral point anyway.

No I totally got that part about playing without abdominal tension--I'm with you. I was using the term "hand off" to describe what you're referring to as a neutral point--the point where one might need to start adding abdominal pressure once the positive pressure of a full set of lungs is reduced enough to be ineffective on its own.

I'm saying that IF you insist on tightening your abdominal muscles in a quiet passage, the diaphragm will contract, trying to pull air back in. It has to, in order to fight playing too loudly.

You lost me on this point here. Engaging your abdomen isn't some on switch to blast. The original point of all of this is that you do not engage your diaphragm to blow out. That's all. You might employ it to control your output a little in tandem with your abdomen and the already built up positive pressure, but that's not the same thing as "blowing."

I'd agree with Reptilian on this - though it is only opinion from me.
Seated, if the hand is placed under your leg as if to lift it, the bicep will engage, whilst the tricep naturally does nothing at all. Reversing this with the hand on top of the thigh, as if to push the leg down, the tricep engages but the bicep does nothing. In both cases it is possible to gauge the amount of effort employed by each muscle - appropriate to lift different weights for example.

It is of course possible to engage both these upper arm muscles at will (I'm not sure this is possible with the diaphragm?) but then such a state of tension is reached that effective movement becomes practically impossible. If the same thing was done trying to play tuba I can't imagine a very musical sound resulting?

[timothy42b]

I'd agree with Reptilian on this - though it is only opinion from me.
Seated, if the hand is placed under your leg as if to lift it, the bicep will engage, whilst the tricep naturally does nothing at all.

Okay, try this Gedankenexperiment.

Seated or standing, grab a 50 pound dumbbell and try to curl it. Your bicep will engage. Your tricep should not. Depending on your strength, the dumbbell may or may not move. When I was younger.............hee, hee.

Now, grab an empty water bottle and contract your bicep with exactly the same force as with the 50 pound dumbbell. BUT! move the water bottle very very slowly or not at all.

How is that possible? I would think the only way you can do that is to fight the bicep with the tricep.

Now, the relevance to tuba playing is this. If you have been given the direction to "support just as hard for a pianissimo note as for a forte note," it is highly likely you are going to tighten abdominal muscles. (In the past many teachers insisted on a stomach that could take a punch.) If you are pushing out with abdominals, and not much air is going to come out, then I submit that you are unknowingly activating your diaphragm to prevent the air coming out. Your diaphragm is trying to inhale while your abdominals and intercostals are trying to exhale.

Or you're stopping it somewhere else, like the throat. That doesn't sound like a good idea either but it may not be as bad as we used to think.

[Peach]

Now, the relevance to tuba playing is this. If you have been given the direction to "support just as hard for a pianissimo note as for a forte note," it is highly likely you are going to tighten abdominal muscles. (In the past many teachers insisted on a stomach that could take a punch.) If you are pushing out with abdominals, and not much air is going to come out, then I submit that you are unknowingly activating your diaphragm to prevent the air coming out. Your diaphragm is trying to inhale while your abdominals and intercostals are trying to exhale.

Or you're stopping it somewhere else, like the throat. That doesn't sound like a good idea either but it may not be as bad as we used to think.

OK, I'm sure it's possible but I don't subscribe to this way of playing, or teaching.
To me it all sounds like chronic overthinking, likely to cause 'paralysis by analysis'. I'd rather stick plenty of air through the tuba and think about the music. YMMV as some folk say...