Conn 20k tuning bit system

[tofu]

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[iiipopes]

No matter how hard I try to be careful, the ends warp and become out of round leading to inefficiency of the instrument.

I have played all manner of sousaphones since August, 1976, and never had a problem warping bits. I have fixed many that others warped, whether through mishandling, dropping, using too much force to "keep them from slipping," etc. Like everything else, it is an instrument, not hardware to bang around. Insert each bit carefully, rotate each bit to position instead of just banging them in, and play on. Conn has not changed this system in over a century, because it works. It works well. Rotating and positioning the neck and the two bits can accommodate 90%+ of all players. Make sure the neck is positioned so the bits come to the mouthpiece from "outside - in" so that there is less chance of binding.

If the bits get stuck, the best way to get them loose is to run the outer bit in hot water and the inner bit in cold water to expand the outer bit and shrink the inner bit. They will usually just twist apart. If a little more persuasion is needed, a couple of soft taps with a rawhide or soft plastic small mallet will usually suffice. More than a tuba leadpipe, bits and necks must be kept absolutely clean to avoid binding. Some people add slide lubricant, but this makes matters worse: the pieces fall apart at inopportune moments, and as the grease sits, it can accumulate even more gunk, making matters even worse.

The final item is the neck: most people over-tighten the neck, thinking they are making it "secure," when all that does is wear out the fitting and the receiver, again, making things worse in the long run. Only tighten the small thumbscrew until just snug.

There is no reason for bits to ever deform or warp. It is usually operator error.

Unrelated to this particular thread, but applies bits in general: most makes have a pair of identical bits, and they all must be treated with the same care. But King have two graduated bits that must be assembled in the correct order, also to avoid damage to the bits as well as properly seat the mouthpiece, each bit, and into the neck.

[toobagrowl]

I've had no issues with Conn, King, Yamaha and Signet necks/bits. The old Elkhart 14k uses the exact same neck/bits as the 20k. Just make sure the bits are nice and snug. If you are getting out-of-round bit-ends, then you are either dropping them on the floor, or jamming the crap out of them when putting them together. I probably like the Selmer Signet necks & bits best, as they do not reverse-taper at the ends and are not friction-fit like the others, but instead are tightened with thumbscrew wingnuts after being fit together

[iiipopes]

Again, if the bits and neck are kept absolutely clean and maintained, and rotated into place rather than jammed in, they do not warp; they do not deform at the tip, they do not come loose from either the mouthpiece or neck, and they last forever. Like elephant says, you must treat your souzy like crap. Eventually, even the Yammy bits will crap out on you as well as the neck and receiver if you do not treat them well.

[Donn]

It seems to me that there might be a market for custom full length sousaphone leadpipe/necks, which would both improve what is likely the sousaphone's most significant acoustic drawback, compared to lap tubas, and eliminate the nuisance of bits rotating around, falling off etc.

[Donn]

But they're still an acoustical compromise, right?

I have slightly regretted the lack of adjustable bits with Czech helicons, because the factory shape didn't suit me so well, but a custom neck disposes of that issue. As far as I'm aware the only need for adjustability is to adapt the neck to the owner's dimensions, which needs to be done once. After that, they appear to be only a nuisance and an acoustical liability. If the sousaphone is inherently an inferior instrument such that a good leadpipe wouldn't really be expected to make any difference, then never mind, but it would be ironic if its problem is exactly just that they always suffer from inferior leadpipes.

[iiipopes]

...it would be ironic if its problem is exactly just that they always suffer from inferior leadpipes.

None of the dozens of sousaphones I have played over the last forty-three years (since as a high school freshman in marching band August 1976) have ever suffered sonically. Indeed, my high school could not afford both tubas and sousaphones, so we used King sousaphones in concert and marching, fiberglass at that, and the band had an 28-year run of "I" state ratings at annual contest. I respectfully suggest that a souzy is not an inferior instrument, if for no other reason than (in upright bell "raincatcher" version) being the preferred bass instrument of Sousa himself.

Oft mistreated: yes. Problems from mistreatment: yes. Problems corrected when hardware repaired: yes. Inherently inferior: no.

[Donn]

I'm not intimately familiar with the high school band scene, but is that where you'd expect to see people sweating over the last details of getting a tuba right?

The leadpipe is a particular example that might define that level. We occasionally hear about a tuba that really shines for someone with this leadpipe, though it comes from the factory with that leadpipe. I had the idea that it's not really a high school band thing, as much as perhaps an orchestra, brass quintet etc. thing. Where sousaphones are real scarce - because they're inferior, aren't they?

[toobagrowl]

Yes I jam them in because who wants your mouthpiece falling out and off the neck which happens frequently when I don't. Poor system based on friction.

I just make sure they are snug by giving a good 'twist' when putting them together. And I also usually use a Kelly (light!) mpc, which greatly decreases the chances of bits/mpc falling out.
But like I said before, there are some necks/bits that do not rely on the friction setup and instead use wingnut thumbscrews like the Selmer Signet. Looking at Taylor Music's website, there are several makes that use the thumbscrews to tighten bits --> Selmer Signet/Bundy/Buescher, Holton and Jupiter.
http://www.1800usaband.com/products/browse/56/246/

I agree that the Yamaha tension bits/necks seem to fit more stable/snug than other tension-fit bits/necks. I like them nearly as much as the Signet setup

@Donn :. I will just say that I tend to prefer the playing characteristics of most BBb sousas over comparable BBb tubas. Yeah.

[Three Valves]

The Tubenet jury solves another!

Who says “don’t blame the victim??”

Not us!!

[TheGoyWonder]

The worst part is that a Conn sousaphone bit doesn't fit a standard "American shank" mouthpiece...best typified by the ***CONN*** Helleberg series. how can you even take this company seriously.

[iiipopes]

Is there nobody besides Elephant and myself, from the posts I have seen in this thread, who knows how to properly take care of souzy bits? (Yes, bloke - that includes you since you admit to "jamming" them together) No, I have not played my souzy for a couple of years, but here are pictures of my bits. As far as I can tell, they are decades old (already used when I got them (mumble) decades ago. Folks, problems with bits are 99 44/100 operator error, allowing for the odd accident of getting bumped, or tripping and falling in marching or field playing.

ConnSouzyBit1.jpg

ConnSouzyBit2.jpg

[toobagrowl]

Is there nobody besides Elephant and myself, from the posts I have seen in this thread, who knows how to properly take care of souzy bits?

Just go play your beloved "Bessophone", iiipopes.

By "jamming", I torque them together rotationally. (Who does otherwise?)
Mine are as new.

Same here. I just worded it differently -- "give it a twist", and I also said I make sure they are nice and 'snug' (tight). I said earlier that I don't really have any issues with any bits/necks.
That said, some bits/neck setups are arguably better/preferable than others.

Reading the thread more carefully, I think some may interpret "jamming" differently from others.

[Kirley]

I love this thread. It really sums up the TNFJ nicely.

I've only used Conn, King, and Wessex bits. Of those 3, the Conn is by far the winner. I've got new ones and old beat up ones. They all work about the same which I judge as "pretty good". Is there room for improvement? Undoubtedly. But still, "pretty good" is... pretty good.

I think a lot of damage to bits occurs during transport. I see lots of guys storing them in a pouch with room to roll around and bang into stuff. Not saying that is what Lost is doing. I use these Sax pouches. It works great.

https://www.amazon.com/Neotech-SaxPac-R ... ef=sr_1_10" target="_blank?

It has room for a mouthpiece, bits, and neck. Almost as if they meant it for us! The "SousaPac" from NeoTub.

I am interested in trying out some Signet/Yamaha/Martin style neck and bits. Does anyone know if any of them are plug and play with a Conn sousaphone neck receiver?

I, like Donn, have been thinking about the one-piece, custom bent leadpipe fo a while. Maybe one day I'll venture down that path.

[Donn]

Clearly the right thing to do is to put them in place just the way you like, and solder them. But it seems to me that it should be easy enough to lock them up without solder, as mine have done that on their own once or twice. How do bits, and mouthpieces and whatnot, get frozen up? It's due to corrosion inside the joint, isn't it? So you might just degrease the mating surfaces and put them together with a droplet of a mild corrosion enhancer. Then everything will stay in place without the regular application of forces that wreak their inevitable havoc on the soft brass.

[Donn]

I, like Donn, have been thinking about the one-piece, custom bent leadpipe fo a while. Maybe one day I'll venture down that path.

I'm betting that the big payoff will be in the upper range voice, but who knows.

[iiipopes]

I, like Donn, have been thinking about the one-piece, custom bent leadpipe fo a while. Maybe one day I'll venture down that path.

I'm betting that the big payoff will be in the upper range voice, but who knows.

Nobody knows. I once had the pleasure of playing a 1930 Conn 38K for a few years which had better tone, better intonation all the way from pedal BBBb all the way to top of the staff Bb with superlative intonation and a seamless transition down from low F 1+3 into the privilege tones on the way that any person out front would think was a 4-valve, than any other tuba or sousaphone I have played before or since. The top range was more solid than any other tuba or sousaphone I have ever played, including absolutely solid intonation and response to the top on pieces such as "The Thunderer" march, etc. Again, it is not anything inherently inferior to the system; difficulties with souzy response and intonation (other than the known issues with Conn 20K's being flat on second space C and Kings being sharp on 4th line F, and a few other idiosyncrasies among the other well known makes and models) it is 99 44/100 operator error. The only reason I quit playing the 38K is 35+ pounds on the shoulder; even with the factory soldered in flat shoulder panel, was more than this poor back could take.

[Three Valves]

Folks the thread has been solved. After 40 plus gigs in the last 2 years marching in 3 mile parades and 5 hour long religious feasts on a heavy and unforgiving 20k in temperatures ranging from 25 degrees to 95 degrees. ...my bits got out of round. Clearly the only explanation is I've been treating them like "crap" the whole time. Don't I feel embarrassed for being called out!!! Ya really got me.

This isn’t over until we say it’s over!!

[iiipopes]

Folks the thread has been solved. After 40 plus gigs in the last 2 years marching in 3 mile parades and 5 hour long religious feasts on a heavy and unforgiving 20k in temperatures ranging from 25 degrees to 95 degrees. ...my bits got out of round. Clearly the only explanation is I've been treating them like "crap" the whole time. Don't I feel embarrassed for being called out!!! Ya really got me.

Apart from the fake self-effacing sarcasm, I won't bother you with the number of gigs I have played, indoors, outdoors, concerts, parades (both marching and trailering), rallies, club functions, etc., over the decades, and as the pictures show, my bits are not out-of-round, and from the tarnish, they are obviously not new. As the rest of the TNFJ have adequately demonstrated, don't start a thread unless you are going to take the posts.

[iiipopes]

Thanks for the valuable lesson!

You are welcome. If we should ever meet in person, the first round of preferred beverages is on me.