Using Eb for Orchestra, Reasonable Limitations

[timothy42b]

You are certainly correct, IMHO, that different materials vibrate slightly differently; that a much thicker wall will vibrate less than a very thin one; that without a blindfold you are certain - you "know" - that you can feel a difference. Vitally, a player's feelings and confidence in his instrument are a huge factor in the quality and sound of his playing. But I suggest, respectfully, that you do a double bluff blindfold test ( - if you can be bothered.)

The pBone should have settled this argument once and for all.

Of course it did not.

There are two things I will never convince people of:

1. It is possible to hear, actually hear, a difference that does not exist.

2. Materials do not make a difference detectable in normal listening environments.

Musicians are superstitious largely because our craft is fragile and largely unobservable, and we fear things going wrong we won't be able to fix.

Trombone players will argue about 1% more zinc in a yellow brass bell making a difference, or one more angstrom of lacquer coating - a prominent Texas symphony player claims to hear the difference if the little rubber nib falls off the end of the slide bumper. (note to self, check tonight if mine is still there.) But in blind tests we've not reliably distinguished between a pBone and a 3B. If a cheap plastic pBone can sound enough like a brass trombone to fool musicians, the case should be closed.

Except for cryogenics. I'm pretty sure you can tell the sound of a cryogenic treated pBone. You would need those magic lafreque sound bridges between the pieces.

[Donn]

Blind tests from the audience's end, right? Or is your position that even for the player, behind the bell, no real difference?

[timothy42b]

Blind tests from the audience's end, right? Or is your position that even for the player, behind the bell, no real difference?

Correct. A pBone does not give me the feedback a brass trombone does; it sounds considerably less bright and "brassy." But the recordings and the audience hear something different. I also sometimes hear a brass trombone as more edgy from behind the bell than a recording hears.

The blind tests done over at the now defunct trombone forum involved a player recording several takes with each horn, then using Audacity to intermingle A and B sections. Listeners did not guess the sections at above chance.

Obviously individual instruments do sound different, even within the same model, but the dramatic difference between materials does not seem to be supported.

[2ba4t]

Never start with bone players. I did. My fault.

Two points:
1. pbones are not a fair test in that many are really badly made and sound 'different' because they sound bad.
2. Audiences are too busy on their phones actually to listen any more. The blind test relates to the trombone player. Let him arrange to have one thousand bones of every conceivable material all prepared and then blow each with the same mouthpiece whilst blindfolded. I guarantee that he will not be able to tell which is full of Pepsi and which full of Coke.
They will feel different to play because of other factors such as bad workmanship, leadpipes, bore, bell size, no/one/two triggers etc. but type of brass/copper/metal mix - if blind-folded - will not, IMHO, be discernible.

[Bbfoghorn]

I see what you did there... Well played my friend:)

[tbonesullivan]

All this thread does when it comes back is make me want to buy an Eb tuba... Now if only a YEB-631 would pop up...