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If we use the B&S PT10 as standard 4/4 of all f tubas as a baseline for size, does a 6/4 F tuba really exist? Back in the 1960's, the Alex, B&S and Cerveny f tubas were available to the tuba player, I am sure there were other makers but thats not the point of this post. I would like to use the B&S for the simple fact that this is probably the most popular f tuba of all time. Now I dont have data to support this as it's just an assumption on my part so I may be totally wrong.

So back to my thought, if we use the B&S PT10 as a base and call it the standard of all F tubas, is there such thing as a 6/4 F tuba or is it just marketing BS. I would agree that the Mel Culbertson F tuba was a huge horn and more likely a 6/4 but most f tubas made today are not that large. The HB12 F tuba was another large horn and being a little larger than the Yamaha 822, I would call the HB12 a 5/4 F tuba.

I see the same thing happening with some companies calling a tuba a 5/4 BBb or 5/4 CC when they are really just a 4/4 size. Just because a bell flares out to 28 inches or has a valve with a bore of 8 thousand, I am being sarcastic here as bell diameter and bore size has no bearing on overall size classification.

So, when looking at new horns today, does a 6/4 f really exist amongst the new designs or is it just for bragging rights to say your F tuba is a 6/4?

That's the Culbertson model. Generally not very good, but I think the last ones off the line were the best (redesigned with smaller bells, iirc).

For the 6/4 F thing... Besides the fact that sizes are all relative, think about the purpose of a 6/4 contrabass tuba... And does that same need exist for an F tuba?

It all depends on what you use as the basis for 4/4. If, like Tom suggested, the old Alex and Cerveny are used as the 4/4 model then the PT-10 is definitely a 5/4 and the PT-15 pushing 6/4. I had a first generation Mirafone 181 that was modeled after the PT-10 or 15. Is was very much the size of an early 186. If an F tuba is the size of a 4/4 contrabass, wouldn’t that make it a 5/4-6/4 for an F?

MartyNeilan wrote:It all depends on what you use as the basis for 4/4. If, like Tom suggested, the old Alex and Cerveny are used as the 4/4 model then the PT-10 is definitely a 5/4 and the PT-15 pushing 6/4. I had a first generation Mirafone 181 that was modeled after the PT-10 or 15. Is was very much the size of an early 186. If an F tuba is the size of a 4/4 contrabass, wouldn’t that make it a 5/4-6/4 for an F?

I dont think there is enough of a difference between the PT10 and 15 that puts one into a different size category.

When looking the BBb or CC for having a 6/4, 5/4 and 4/4, and 3/4 sizes, this works because visually the differences are very noticeable. i dont think its that easy on the F.

Over twenty years ago I bought an F tuba off eBay for $2800. It was in great shape and purportedly had been Wes Jacobs' horn in the Detroit Symphony. In the case was an appraisal letter signed by Alan Baer who at that time had a repair shop and was tubist of the Milwaukee Symphony. The horn was a six rotor 4+2 configuration by Meinl Weston, possibly a model 45. I thought it was BIG for an F tuba, and I don't think I have seen an F tuba since that was larger. 6/4 F may be a stretch.

Ace

I vote for "it's all marketing nonsense". If it's NOT nonsense, I'd be curious to know how they come up with their units of measurement, but I'm guessing that it's probably not exactly scientific.

In my mind:
3/4=621, 182, the really small Willson, 180 Miraphone
4/4=Firebird, Elektra, 155 Alex
4/4+=Gronitz Piston, Petrushka
5/4=most of the B&S and MW rotary F tubas, 2250
5/4+=45SLP, MRP, 45SLZ, big Willson, 822
6/4=Apollo (never even saw one, but I guess they were really big)

I'm just guessing based on how I remember them in my lap, so I'm probably wrong on several counts. Just my opinion, and probably much like the manufacturers, not exactly scientific.

I had this 4/4 versus 6/4 explained to me a LONG TIME ago by Gerhard Meinl. Post WW 2 and before the days of the internet with easy access to pictures, you could generally judge the size of the tuba by just knowing the diameter of the bell flair. Most contra bass tubas of 15.75" through 16.5" diameter bell were considered 4/4 size tubas as most manufactures would build them of the same basic volumetric capacity. i.e. the amount of water you could fill the inside of the tuba with then pour out and measure. Some were taller. Some were built shorter but basically the same size volumetrically.
For Contra Bass Tubas it was:
15" bell is 3/4 size
16" bell is 4/4 size
18" bell is 5/4 size
20" bell is 6/4 size

For the smaller Bass Tubas it was:
14" bell is for 4/4 (Mira 180 and Cerveny 641 or 651)
15" bell is for 5/5
16.5" bell is for 6/4

That all has changed as society has gravitated towards bigger and louder in nearly all things. Once upon a time a regular cup of coffee was a 6 ounce beverage. A SMALL coffee today is 8-12 oz.

So what was considered 5/4 or large 30-60 years ago, is considered average today. In the world of F tubas, we expect them to sound just a little smaller than our current taste for the 5/4 and 6/4 tubas. Hence, the popularity of 16.5" diameter bell F tubas becoming the new norm.

I consider my Yamaha 822 a 6/4 F. It's actually almost identical to my MW 3450 in stature. Both have very similar sounds and produce good volume. Because it is so big many people don't care for it's character. I love the sound and play-ability. But it does lack some tuba character that I crave.

That's why I am in the middle of a York Eb build. The York will be 90+% all York as I chance this 112 year old horn from 3 valve top to a 5 valve front. I think the result will be a bass tuba with a huge sound and character. and with its 19 inch bell another 6/4 bass tuba

I dare to take this opportunity to ask something I have been ashamed to ask previously.

What does '6/4' mean? I have always thought that 1/2 meant half size and 3/4 three quarters - not in actual fact but in concept. So a 3/4 BBb is simply smaller model. Thus 4/4 presumably means 'normal' or 'whole' size. 5/4 and 6/4 are, therefore, steps bigger. I imagine that this encompassed all of actual height, bore and bell size.

But now I see that it really refers to bore only - ergo the huge bore '6/4' F piggy tuba, depicted. My problem has always been that one can build a very tall, large belled thing with a really, narrow bore. It has a 3/4 bore and 6/4 height. Also, a good medium size instrument can have a much bigger bell on and then play with a far broader, softer-edged sound.

Sticking cylindrical extra crooks on my Ebs allows them to play in CC and play low BBb down to EEE very clearly. But usually some higher harmonics [7th and 8th] need alternative fingerings. Would this happen if one build a correctly profiled, but as large as possible, Eb or F? The F/BBb full double tuba I played in Alexander's decades ago, looked like a big bore Kaiser, but the F side actually blew very well with that bore - just the valves were too heavy.

Perhaps the experts can tell us the maximum bore for each pitched tuba allowing for all harmonics still being in tune. How big can an F tuba get?? Has someone built an F Godzilla? A piccolo F tuba of course has been used for centuries. It is a hauntingly beautiful creature - they call it the French horn. Also, how does the degree of expansion and where it occurs along the bugle, affect the sound? It seems that British 'bass-saxhorns' have a different profile from the continental tuba. The latter seem narrower for longer.

Thank you.

MartyNeilan wrote: I had a first generation Mirafone 181 that was modeled after the PT-10 or 15. Is was very much the size of an early 186. If an F tuba is the size of a 4/4 contrabass, wouldn’t that make it a 5/4-6/4 for an F?

My understanding is that, at least in their marketing, it's always been listed as 5/4.

2ba4t wrote:But now I see that it really refers to bore only - ergo the huge bore '6/4' F piggy tuba, depicted. My problem has always been that one can build a very tall, large belled thing with a really, narrow bore. It has a 3/4 bore and 6/4 height. Also, a good medium size instrument can have a much bigger bell on and then play with a far broader, softer-edged sound.

I have no idea about F tubas, but it has been my impression that among contrabass tubas, a big enough tuba will be 6/4, whatever the bore size. After all, it's supposed to be a conical instrument, so sizing isn't like trombones. Speaking of "piggy" designs, the relatively common Cerveny CC piggy has quite a large bore, but I'm pretty sure no one ever thinks of it as more than 4/4. The same goes, in the end, for bell flares - a big bell flare on a 4/4 tuba doesn't make it any bigger. It would be easier to talk about sizes if we could use measurable dimensions like bell or bore diameter, but conical instrument size is about volume, and even that is subject to qualification. The largest bow might be bigger on one tuba than another, where the size of bell might be the reverse, and each of this will have its own effect.

I'm not sure how it compares to others, but the Meinl Weston "Kodiak" 6460 always seemed pretty darn big to me.

mctuba1 wrote:If we use the B&S PT10 as standard 4/4 of all f tubas as a baseline for size, does a 6/4 F tuba really exist? Back in the 1960's, the Alex, B&S and Cerveny f tubas were available to the tuba player, I am sure there were other makers but thats not the point of this post.

I know this is tangental to your point but if nobody talks about how things were "in the earlier days" you will never know.

In the 1960's the only F tubas available were the Besson small F, the Mirafone tiny F and the Alexander F which was a larger tuba but notoriously pitchy. The only Cerveny F tubas were those people had individually imported, mostly pre-war horns.

There were some inferior F's imported on a limited basis in the 60's. I saw a Mahillion F tuba once and in 1970 I saw a Scherzer that I eventually bought. There was a very tiny B&S F at Mid-West around that time. Roger Bobo used the tiny Miraphone F on his solo album which was in the 60s. I believe I remember Tommy Johnson saying that he and Roger thought F tuba was so useless for professional work that they shared ownership.

The B&S Symphonie model was first available in the around the mid-1970's, Arnold Jacobs bought one and used it on the video of the CSO performance of Berlioz's Romeo and Juliet.

BEFORE the 1960's the selection of F tubas was almost nil. Bill Bell told Harvey he needed a CC tuba if he was going to play professionally and the 1920s Conn CC he bought was the only one available at that time. It was a different world.