TubeNet

Living in Minnesota I always figured you could get the same effect by leaving the horn in the trunk on a nice late-January night.

Precisely! Nearly all in the mind, in my humble opinion.

One of my inlaws is an old woodwind repairer favoured by the jazz sax players in his city. One brilliant player changed to an incredibly expensive, top instrument but was constantly unsure about it. It just did not sound right to him. Everyone thought he was miraculous on it. He took it in time and again. This old Russian repair expert told him it was perfect but reluctantly eventually changed everything even though they were brand new - springs, pads, corks, minute adjustments - the lot. The player was still not satisfied. So, on the umpteenth visit, my inlaw took out the sax to the back of the shop yet again [he also plays, is the sweetest man in the world and had been through Siberia, 12 years literally. He understands human beings] and returned, smiling, with a wet small ball of newspaper. 'Look what I just found wedged inside!!' The owner blew it there and then and said, 'That's it. It's perfect now!!' He did not charge him - not even a psychologist's fee.

In a similar vein, no one answered my query from years ago, March 09 2017, about the perplexing "lefreque acoustic plates". As far as I understand, in scientific terms, yes, the metal vibrates but no, that does not affect the sound. (See Smithwatkins site and esp Richard Smith's brilliant research. "The effect of material in brass instruments a review, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics 8, 91-96 (1986) (R. Smith)" https://www.smithwatkins.com/administra ... A-1986.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) I dare to add those thick mouthpieces, the Venturi gap stuff and most other stuff needs critical scrutiny.

Perhaps I am just a cynic.

STRAD.

never heard of the welding rod thing


lol

Compared to the choice between "red" and yellow brass for bell material, the rod is at least as plausibly going to make a noticeable difference, am I right?

I'm guessing these rods are brass, for braze "welding". All I have, and all they have at the local supply, is flux coated.

Donn wrote:Compared to the choice between "red" and yellow brass for bell material, the rod is at least as plausibly going to make a noticeable difference, am I right?

.

In my opinion, which is worth nothing, the sound comes from the lips exciting the wind column. Period. The brass is in contact with the wind column, so it is also forced to vibrate. That vibration is tiny in comparison, but it's so close to the players ear that there may be a near field effect. If that is the case, the rod could plausibly affect sound the player can hear, but not be detectable in the room.

Some years ago I tried to isolate the two, on the premise that hearing what the audience hears is better. So I wrapped a trombone bell in self vulcanizing tape to damp out all the bell vibrations.

Nobody could tell the difference.

timothy42b wrote:Nobody could tell the difference.

Including yourself? I've heard this before, that the bell may make a difference in what the player hears, but I don't know if that was mostly speculative or empirical. I believe trombone players also concern themselves with seams and other details of bell fabrication.

For anyone who's interested, I can report that 3/32" fluxed brass rod weighs about 1/2 ounce per foot. (You wouldn't actually use fluxed rod for this I imagine, and there'd be added weight from the solder.)

I am honestly astonished that anyone in the wonderful world of tubenet can still imagine that type of metal and 'rods welded on', venturi and in my opinion especially 'sound plates' - are worth even discussing except in terms of the Law of Fraud. Please please actually read "The effect of material in brass instruments a review, Proceedings of the Institute of Acoustics 8, 91-96 (1986) (R. Smith)" https://www.smithwatkins.com/administra" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank ... A-1986.pdf"

They are all snake oil. You guys are crazy and insecure if you believe any of the blatant misrepresentations. Yes, if you FEEL better then your playing will improve. If you FEEL you have a new gadget that helps, you will play better. If you have an expensive widget then you MUST subconsciously justify spending hard-earned money on it - so again you are convinced it must help - and, sure, it does, Really - psychologically. My father-in-law was a wonderful physician who never did a minute's work outside the UK National Health system. Yes, he left very little ££ but a wonderful heritage. He always said that 60% of patients would recover with no intervention. But a pill made them feel better so they recovered better!!

Red brass, yellow brass, copper, rose copper brass, brass copper rose red - all mythology. Vibrations of the metal do happen but, as mentioned by timothy42b who is obviously, I guess, a science-based dude - are completely irrelevant to the sound. Close your eyes, use your brains and admit it - you have been had bigly by manufacturers' sales talk. Millions of $$ for nothing. Brazen, palpable fake news.

Start the revolution!!!!!!!! We should cryogenically freeze the people spreading these false hopes, weld heavy metal rods on their foreheads, stick venturi receivers into their .... ears. put copper red brass bells around their necks and make then swallow sound plate do-das to improve their voices.

On the other hand, we could market 'tubenet 24 carat gold (coloured aluminium) sound plates encrusted with (glass) diamonds hand-crafted by technicians with hundreds of years' experience all humming Tubby the Tuba as they work. Now that would improve anyone's playing. A more refined version would have the techs humming that customer's favourite tune.

On a slightly more serious note, IMHO some real points are:
1] a pure uninterrupted air column. Note that valves are inevitable but terrible, jagged interruptions. Also, remove all dead rodents.
2] therefore also no leaks. (always have a tapered wine cork with you. Take off the last slide before the bell. Stick in the cork. Push down all the valves. Blow like mad. If it hisses don't touch it - repair it or sell it.
3] a correctly configured and shaped horn - based on makers' centuries of empirical trial and error - and perhaps a little modern computerised stuff.
4] no loose soldering which allows different parts to vibrate separately. This does NOT affect the overall sound but may rattle or fuzz.
5] the right mouthpiece, bell and bore you want for your favoured sound.
6] masses of intelligent practice. Record yourself and listen.
7] playing as a soloist when young in front of as many people as often as possible - charity/old people homes/ schools.
8] when older - whisky or vodka.

No one is listening out there; no one. Nothing will defeat blind faith.

“Democracy dies in the chill chest!!”

cktuba wrote:You know, I've always considered cryogenic treatment of brass instruments to be hokum. But now that I see the NYT is poo-pooing it ... I'm thinking there might be something to it.

Not the NYT. Tufts University.