Instrument choice for Bruckner

[ppalan]

Hi,
I thought of putting this question into the other thread re: Eb tubas in the orchestra but didn't want to distract from the thrust of that discussion. My orchestra will be performing the Bruckner 4th in November. I've not played much Bruckner and must confess his symphonies are not among my favorites. I downloaded the part from IMSLP and it clearly says Bass Tuba. My question is this: Would it be a wise choice to actually use a Bass Tuba for this work? I have both an Eb and an F. My Eb has a very good low range. The F less so. There is a pedal C and it is perfectly doable with both F and Eb but better on Eb. The entire piece, on the other hand also works on my CC. I've listened to a number of recordings and its not clear to me which type of horn is being used. I would appreciate any of your thoughts. Thank you in advance.
Pete

[Simonk]

If the logistics work, maybe take both a bass and contrabass? As you say, it will work on either the EEb or your CC but what works the best fit for your orchestra and the hall you're playing in? I don't think there is an absolute right answer (though some may say this verges on heresy...)

[timayer]

The piece requires a tuba with breadth to provide a foundation for the trombone section, as there is some serious chorale work. It also requires a very good high register and very good low register. If you have three horns to use, I would use the one that provides as much of that as possible.

Don't worry about the pedal C. No one is going to hear it anyway. No one will be listening for it. The piece will not fall apart without it.

Eb major and Eb tuba? That's tempting.

If I had two bass tubas, one with a better low register than the other, I wouldn't waste what could be some very enjoyable rehearsals on a horn that wasn't going to be satisfying to play or hear.

It's specified for bass tuba, but you're also likely going to be supporting a trombone section comprised of much bigger instruments than Bruckner wrote for. And most people would use the CC anyway, despite the specification. I did it on a 2155 in college before I played F tuba. Worked fine. I would use my CC again if I had it coming up this year because my bass tuba is a 182 and wholly insufficient for the piece. If I had a B&S F or something like it I would happily give it a try. I have ALWAYS wanted to try it on Eb for all of the reasons stated above.

If you have the facility with the fingerings, I'd bring both and go back and forth and, oh lord, ask the conductor which he/she prefers, given that the feedback from the tuba chair isn't what the audience will hear.

This is close to a non-answer, but you have a chance to have some fun, experiment, and play Bruckner 4. Life could be worse!

[The Brute Squad]

I'm not as familiar with 4 as I am his later symphonies, but that looks like a fun one to play!

[timayer]

I just want to take a moment to applaud you for your username, Brute Squad. Well done. Well done, indeed.

[Bnich93]

In many Bruckner symphonies I generally regard our job as the pedals of an organ. I would usually go for the CC for the breadth of sound in the chorale sections, as long as I am confident in my ability to reach into the upper register with clarity when called upon. Another option if you are willing to carry a lot is to bring both F and CC and switch where appropriate such as one might do while playing certain Wagner pieces.

[bort]

Your CC tuba isn't exactly huge, so I'd say go with that. Best of both worlds, to paraphrase Harvey(I think?), the high range on a CC tuba is a lot better than the low range on an F tuba.

[doublebuzzing]

Have always used a 4/4 BBb with a medium depth mouthpiece. No issues.

[timayer]

Wouldn't a good compromise be a nice Eb sousaphone?
I believe Jinbao offers a 4-valve, yes...??

Even a 3-valve should offer a nice, resonant, and secure double-low C...

Finally some clear thinking here.

This has a lot of benefits - You can walk to whatever section you happen to be supporting in a given phrase (horns, trombone, basses). If the conductor needs more tuba you don't have to play louder. Just walk to the front of the stage. If the conductor wants less tuba, you can simply turn around and play backwards (also advisable when playing as the bass voice of the french horn section).

As with most of bloke's ideas, I see no down side here.

[Bnich93]

"the fact that you own and use an Eb indicates to me you don't buy into the US tuba culture (at least in recent history) of playing the biggest 6/4 CC York-o-phone on every-freakin-thing possible"

I feel attacked and conflicted.

[jtuba]

There's really only one tuba that is acceptable for any of the Bruckner symphonies..

harvard-tuba.jpg

[Mark E. Chachich]

In my opinion, use the tuba (that you own) that best suits your orchestra. Now orchestra string sections mostly use steel strings (more powerful than gut strings, I know because I am also a professional string bass player and have used both). Orchestra brass, woodwind and percussion sections also generally use more powerful instruments than in Bruckner's time (and not that long ago). An example, when I was playing in the Palm Beach Symphony (late 1970s) the bass trombone player was Warren Burkhart (retired from the Cleveland Orchestra, a great person and a great musician) used a bass trombone that was the size that many tenor trombone players in today's orchestras play. My advice, use what matches your orchestra, use your judgement and use the tuba that best matches your orchestra. If it sounds good your conductor, section, orchestra and audience will be happy. Also, whatever the part says (bass or contrabass tuba) the composer wrote for a different sounding orchestra.

have fun with Bruckner!
Mark

[tobysima`]

If the logistics work, maybe take both a bass and contrabass? As you say, it will work on either the EEb or your CC but what works the best fit for your orchestra and the hall you're playing in? I don't think there is an absolute right answer (though some may say this verges on heresy...)

I would do F on 4th symphony, CC and F depending on the movement on 7, and contrabass tuba on 8 or 9.

I’ve heard a live recording done of the local full time group while studying with their principal tubist in a recording where he used F tuba—it worked very nicely with the blend and color.

In many Bruckner symphonies I generally regard our job as the pedals of an organ. I would usually go for the CC for the breadth of sound in the chorale sections, as long as I am confident in my ability to reach into the upper register with clarity when called upon. Another option if you are willing to carry a lot is to bring both F and CC and switch where appropriate such as one might do while playing certain Wagner pieces.

The Germans sure don't have a problem playing two tubas on works of Bruckner, Wagner, etc. Isn't this why many of us own two tubas? To use them when necessary/feasible/makes sense/sounds good/helps us do our job better and easier? PPALAN, the fact that you own and use an Eb indicates to me you don't buy into the US tuba culture (at least in recent history) of playing the biggest 6/4 CC York-o-phone on every-freakin-thing possible, and reserving F tuba for Bydlo, recital material, and the next solo album. It indicates to me you don't believe, as many are taught, that playing BBb and Eb makes you an amateur, and how you can only be taken seriously if you play CC and F (Sorry, ranting about tuba culture is for a different thread.) It also tells me you are an intelligent, thinking person who probably doesn't need to put this question to the TNFJ. But since you asked...

Everyone's concepts of the music might differ slightly, although the music director probably won't notice much or care as long as you're in tune and on time. Bruckner was an organist, and it's easy to hear that in his music. As previously mentioned the tuba often performs an organ pedal function and feel, although I wouldn't describe the role of the tuba in his works as exclusively "organ pedal." In addition to being an organ pedal, the tuba can also function, as with many other works and composers, like a 4th trombone, the bottom of the horn section, sometimes a bass of a different color, and sometimes you actually get to be the tuba. And you can often have multiple functions in the same piece. It's not uncommon to see German (and other) players bringing two instruments for works in which Americans might only bring one. And they may use a bass tuba for some works, whereas Americans will bring their biggest-freakinest-hugest 6/4 CC York-o-phone. (I'd rather play Meistersinger on F tuba like the Germans do, even if that runs afoul of American tuba culture and what is deemed "proper." After all, you are mostly a bass of another color in that piece, so let's provide some COLOR. It's not a solo work for tuba, but I digress...) Play whatever tuba or tubas help you sound your best in your section in your orchestra. Experimenting in rehearsal might provide all the answers.

If you play in a small orchestra, a CC won't blow them out, and despite the "bass tuba" indication, CC is not inherently wrong for the music, particularly with the size of modern instruments, as mentioned by other posters. Conversely, if you play in large orchestra, a projecting, singing F tuba will not get lost (the wire choir can't compete no matter how many are sawing away up front). You could likely play Eb for the entire piece very comfortably regardless of the size of the ensemble. Or mix and match. If the F, Eb, or CC (or any combination thereof) makes it easiest to do your job well, that's what should you be playing. And if you care to record it, please share the recording for us tuba junkies who love hearing good works played by good players.

Very late, but I bet something like a Vienna F would ROCK at Bruckner works.

[tclements]

I used both, CC for the really big stuff (like the last mvt), and F for the first mvt. While Brukner intended it to be played on a bass, I think THESE DAYS, everyone expects a huge sound on the last mvt. As always, I say, "Play what YOU want."

[marccromme]

Funny. I was just today in the Danish Radio Concert hall, enjoying the DR symphony orchestra with a marvelous performance of Bruckners 4th. The tubaist used a biig 6/4 C York style tuba with front action, couldn't tell the brand from the distance. It worked really well with the large bore trombone section and 5 french horns. Really well played!

[T. J. Ricer]

We did Bruckner 4 a few years ago with the HSO and I used my former B&S Symphonie (it has found a new home during the pandemic). I felt it had plenty of pop mixed with tons of color and clarity. The rotary F also blends better with the trombones, where the piston CC tends to blend more with the basses (at least mine, when I’m playing it, ymmv). The tuba part on this one seems to me to be much more of an afterthought or additional trombone part than later Bruckner symphonies.

An interesting aside: the brass section did a masterclass at UH leading up to the concerts where we played several big excerpts, then let the students swap into the chairs with the brass section, so we heard my take on rotary F tuba, then several of my students on different sizes of CC and BBb... there was not consensus in the room as to the favorite sound. I was surprised how much I liked the sound of one student on her tall, rotary BBb tuba, even on the highest parts!

To muddy the waters even further, if I am lucky enough to play Bruckner 4 again (hopefully we can all play publicly and safely again soon!), I think I will probably use a large Eb tuba, as I no longer own a 6-valve F and some of the lower passages are definitely improved with the double left hand fingerings.

It’s not so high or so low that you can’t do a great job on all four modern keys of tuba or some combination thereof.

-T. J.

[tobysima`]

I used both CC; for the really big stuff (like the last mvt), and F for the first mvt. While Brukner intended it to be played on a bass, I think THESE DAYS, everyone expects a huge sound on the last mvt. As always, I say, "Play what YOU want."

Seems like the perfect job for one of those huge F or Ebs then (Meinl Weston 2250 for example).

[Alex C]

In my opinion, use the tuba (that you own) that best suits your orchestra. Now orchestra string sections mostly use steel strings (more powerful than gut strings, I know because I am also a professional string bass player and have used both). Orchestra brass, woodwind and percussion sections also generally use more powerful instruments than in Bruckner's time (and not that long ago). An example, when I was playing in the Palm Beach Symphony (late 1970s) the bass trombone player was Warren Burkhart (retired from the Cleveland Orchestra, a great person and a great musician) used a bass trombone that was the size that many tenor trombone players in today's orchestras play.
have fun with Bruckner!
Mark

Best comment so far.

Use the best tuba you own for this performance.

Why should the tuba use an F tuba when the string players are not playing 19th century strings or bows? The woodwinds are not using albert system instruments and the other brass are using instrument bigger than anything seen in the 1800s. St. Martin in the Fields used to produce period correct recordings where old instruments were used, the best I can say of those marvelous players if that "the performance was... interesting."

It will probably be cancelled anyway, covid isn't going away.

[rudysan]

On the Metropolitan Montreal Orchestra recording of the 4th symphony, the tuba player uses a F tuba (a Firebird) for the whole piece and it sounds awesome. Very solid low range. Of course, the player is also very strong. I think some German orchestras also use a bass tuba.

[barry grrr-ero]

You'll get a trillion opinions, of course. Ask yourself what the hall is like (?). How many double basses are there in the orchestra, and are they any good (can they produce enough sound)? If there are enough double basses to carry their end, then think of yourself more as a bass to the trombone section, than as a 'super bass' to the entire orchestra a la Mahler or Shostakovich. To me, the ideal instrument is a 6/4 F with a good low register, or a CC - not bigger than 5/4 - that has plenty of core and some punch to the sound. That's the sound I like in Bruckner 4. That's just me.