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I know this is probably a dumb question, but does a compensating euphonium offer any advantages other than being able to play notes below low E in tune? I have played a non comp 4 valve horn for years and have never felt deprived or anything, but it seems like even the cheap Chinese horns now are compensating, so I am starting to feel compensation envy. As wind band lit is about the only thing I use it for, is there any real reason to have a compensating horn, other than a few bars in one of the Holst Suites that goes to a C below the staff?

This will explain it: http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-comp.cfm

There is a lot more information on Dave Werden's site including forums and reviews.

I hope this helps.

bloke wrote:

mikebmiller wrote:I know this is probably a dumb question, but does a compensating euphonium offer any advantages other than being able to play notes below low E in tune?

No.

I like a simple answer

You also get a C and B natural in better tune, without having to pull out any valve slides. But, it isn't really necessary.

If you have small hands and the right pinky has trouble with the 4th valve, you'll be a lot happier with a comper. I was playing a 4 upright with my left hand operating the 4th valve anyway, so moving to a comper was a good ergonomic choice. As well as an easier intonation choice.

My horn is a Willson 2704 with 4 valves in-line. I am 90% a trombone player, so I only play the euph in community band. I confess that I often go months without touching it. My valve technique is nowhere near what a real euph player would have. I have trouble on fast passages that require 2/4 combination, so I confess to playing a lot of B naturals with 123, even though I know they are not as well in tune. I have played other folks' 3+1 horns and I suppose I could get used to that, but it would take some time.

That's how I look at it, coming from trombone. Also I've been told that whenever the 4th valve is an option, use it for best intonation on the euphonium

With the trombone though, I know some straight trombone purists who refuse to use it for C and B natural in the staff. They will not even use it for low F sometimes. Claim it "doesn't sound/feel/etc the same". I on the other hand use it even for the Bb and A on the staff if it helps make a passage smoother. The T3 Bb is a nice note, and it's definitely easier than going to 1st position if you're playing in the key of Ab major.

bloke wrote:...
These (were) pretty cool. Rich Matteson (back when YAMAHA was offering factory-made ones) touted and had on on his instrument.

https://www.hornguys.com/products/stauf ... -euphonium

I have one of these on my 321. Works beautifully.

tbonesullivan wrote:...

With the trombone though, I know some straight trombone purists who refuse to use it for C and B natural in the staff. They will not even use it for low F sometimes. Claim it "doesn't sound/feel/etc the same". I on the other hand use it even for the Bb and A on the staff if it helps make a passage smoother. The T3 Bb is a nice note, and it's definitely easier than going to 1st position if you're playing in the key of Ab major.

Well, these are the players who have not put the time into developing those trigger notes. So, yeah, they don't sound as good. With work, they can sound every bit as good as the open horn notes. And, yes, I use the T3 Bb all the time. Gets you out to 6th and 5th for C and Db nicely.

So here is a follow up question. If compensation only matters below low E, why does Wessex list a 3 valve baritone that is “fully compensating?” is that just marketing jargon?

mikebmiller wrote:So here is a follow up question. If compensation only matters below low E, why does Wessex list a 3 valve baritone that is “fully compensating?” is that just marketing jargon?

It's a three valve compensating system, instead of 4 valves. So when you have the third valve down, it runs the air column back through valves 1 and 2. If you look at the pictures, you will see that there are a bunch of extra loops coming out of the first two valves. So any valve combination with 3 is more in tune.

Three valve compensating systems don't have the extra low range between the fundamental and 2nd harmonic. However, it allows the 2nd and third harmonics to be more in tune. Kinda like how a trumpet has those valve slides on 1 and 3. This makes the instrument more in tune, just in the 2nd and 3rd harmonics.

For comparison, a 4 valve compensating system does not improve intonation in the 3rd harmonic.

tbonesullivan wrote: For comparison, a 4 valve compensating system does not improve intonation in the 3rd harmonic.

A more accurate statement would be, if you use a 4 valve compensating system as if it only had 3 valves, it would not improve intonation in the 3rd harmonic.

Hup

Not a euphonium player myself, but I dare say there wouldn't be any use for the 4th valve, in the 3rd harmonic, so indeed the 4v compensating system would be doing no compensating.

Check my math - could be post-prandial delusive rambling -
4th partial = 3rd harmonic = { F# G Ab A Bb }

Donn wrote:Not a euphonium player myself, but I dare say there wouldn't be any use for the 4th valve, in the 3rd harmonic, so indeed the 4v compensating system would be doing no compensating.

Check my math - could be post-prandial delusive rambling -
4th partial = 3rd harmonic = { F# G Ab A Bb }

I am considering the fundamental to be the 1st harmonic and the 1st partial. Therefore the 3rd partial and the 3rd harmonic are the same note (it is the 2nd overtone).

Hup

Indeed that appears to be common usage. Somewhere I've picked up an off-by-one counting system (as for example "partial" defined in the glossary of Harmonic Experience: Tonal Harmony from Its Natural Origins to Its Modern.) Online references seem to all agree that the 2nd partial is the 2nd harmonic, but the off by one counting system still shows up in instructional material on specific instruments like guitar, flute, piano. The "overtone" series are legitimately off by one, though, and at a guess, things could have gotten kind of confusing if someone started saying "harmonic overtone".

I have also come across those confusing contradictions. That's why I said that I consider the fundamental to be the first harmonic and first partial. Some time ago I decided that the best references use the terms this way, although it is clear not everyone agrees.

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote:A more accurate statement would be, if you use a 4 valve compensating system as if it only had 3 valves, it would not improve intonation in the 3rd harmonic.

ARGH. Got my Partials/Harmonics/overtones mixed up again.

What I meant, was 3rd overtone = 4th Harmonic = 4th partial.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-harmonics.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

So:
4 valve compensating system:
- better intonation in 1st, 2nd , and 3rd harmonics.
- full chromatic 2nd harmonic.

3 valve compensating system:
- better intonation in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 8th harmonics in standard usage. Also gives some options up higher if specific notes are out of tune.
- gap between 1st and 2nd harmonic.

tbonesullivan wrote:4 valve compensating system:
- better intonation in 1st, 2nd , and 3rd harmonics.
- full chromatic 2nd harmonic.

Is that true, 4V Blaikley hands you a perfectly in tune full octave? It seems to me that this is asking too much - you'd need to combine the 4V and 3V systems, in principle, to get there. The 4V system adds tubing to 1/2/3 when used individually with 4, but when you start combining 1/2/3, along with 4, you again fall short of the full required tubing length. bloke has written at some length, with pictures, on the compromises need if you really want to go there. Perhaps more significant for Eb tuba, where you might care about those notes more.

Donn wrote:Is that true, 4V Blaikley hands you a perfectly in tune full octave? It seems to me that this is asking too much - you'd need to combine the 4V and 3V systems, in principle, to get there. The 4V system adds tubing to 1/2/3 when used individually with 4, but when you start combining 1/2/3, along with 4, you again fall short of the full required tubing length. bloke has written at some length, with pictures, on the compromises need if you really want to go there. Perhaps more significant for Eb tuba, where you might care about those notes more.

It's chromatic, but definitely not in tune. This is most of the top tier pro euphoniums now have the main tuning slide trigger.

In concert pitch, the F, E, Eb, and D would be in tune. The Db, C, and B natural would all be sharp, with B natural being the most sharp. But, the notes do exist, and they are definitely more in tune than when using a non compensating 4 valve euphonium. Also the non compensator would not have a B Natural at all.

The Kaiser Baritone style Euphoniums often have a 5th valve that helps have a full chromatic (out of tune) series.

If a player plays moderate difficulty band repertoire that is common with many community bands, and does not play anything below f at the bottom of the bass clef, then my answer is: neither (the comp Euph being referred to as a 4-valve comp Euph). The second best horn for this repertoire is a 3-valve compensating euph, which does not have the problems with the C and B nat as does the non-comp, and since you can play G and D with 3rd valve alone in tune, is not sharp on these notes as is a 4-valve Euph using 1+2, as 3rd valve still has to be pulled long to get 2+3 in tune.

Of course, for tone, for American concert bands, I am still a fan of the "American" instrument that was the mainstay for decades, even a century of concert band usage, traditionally made by King, Conn, Olds, Reynolds, Martin, etc., and of which a version is currently made by Wessex, and which I own one. To my ears, the tone is its own character, not just tuba up an octave, and blends better with both brass and woodwinds than does a Besson-style Euph. The only two notes that need real help are C and low F, which is set with the 4th valve slide, and B nat and low E nat, which may need lipping for 2+4. 1+2 G and D are still slightly sharp, so the valve slides need to be pulled just slightly to make lipping of all the notes easier: G, Ab, A, D, Eb, E.