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Timpani damages your face internally when you produce competing pitches. What is the scientific explanation for this? Contrasting waves of frequency when the out-of-tune vibrations carry through your instrument?

Leto Cruise wrote:Timpani damages your face internally when you produce competing pitches. What is the scientific explanation for this? Contrasting waves of frequency when the out-of-tune vibrations carry through your instrument?

What are the characteristics of an internally damaged face?

Hup

I had a relative who was a woodwind specialist and tried doubling on cello.

As he played cello, he made some involuntary mouth movements as the bow changed direction, and it interfered with his embouchure on clarinet.

It's also possible that since the music stand is beyond the drum, you're squinting to see it and compressing your lips.

These seem more likely to me than an actual effect of sound.

bloke wrote:scientific proof pictured here:
(Pictures are believing.)

(consensus, settled, peer-reviewed, certified, licensed, ~and~ degreed)

timothy42b wrote:I had a relative who was a woodwind specialist and tried doubling on cello.

As he played cello, he made some involuntary mouth movements as the bow changed direction, and it interfered with his embouchure on clarinet.

It's also possible that since the music stand is beyond the drum, you're squinting to see it and compressing your lips.

These seem more likely to me than an actual effect of sound.

THIS!!! I also play guitar, and holy crap learning to dissociate my face from my playing while on guitar has always been a pain. Especially when bending strings, which raises the pitch, my face keeps trying to tighten to raise the pitch. It's mostly gone, but I don't think singing and playing guitar at the same time will ever happen. Just remembering to breathe is hard enough.

Anyway, the tuba is a resonator, and when timpani is hit HARD, it makes a pressure wave, and if you have your mouth on the horn at the time, yes it could conceivably travel down and into your mouth. If you google "japanese war tubas" you will see what were in fact listening devices for airplanes, which look like giant tubas. So yes, tubas work both ways, and if you're next to timpani, the impact of the pressure wave can probably cause some resonance issues.

We have a fun rehearsal space in a high school, which installed gun shot detectors, and for some reason installed them in the band and orchestra rooms too, even though they have percussion instruments in them as well. King Katschei set them off EVERY TIME.

lost wrote:Please cite the research when you start a thread like this. I suspect if it were good research, there would already be a hypothesis to your question.

?? Cite what research? The whole post was a question? I mean try playing with an out of tune timpani and let me know how your face feels.

I have never encountered facial damage because of being close to a loud, out-of-tune tympanist. I have become temporarily hard of hearing, angry enough to become severely profane, and have seen section mates quit bands because the director refused to rein in out-of-control tympanists, but facial damage? Are you kidding?

However, I will agree that far too many tympanists I've encountered tune sharp, sometimes WAY sharp.

I've been hit in the side of the head on the back swing of crash cymbals and a bass drum mallet. My wife might disagree, but I don't think it did any permanent damage.

I mean, I could see this happening if you were ready to play, and the timpani hit a huge note, scaring you and causing you to bash your face into your tuba.

Don’t get mad, get even... you know how tympanists always place their stand in between the crook of the center two? Someone (who shall remain nameless... ) used to stack coins underneath them for the worst offenders to rattle wildly during a rehearsal. Makes a glorious sound and quickly brings the entire orchestra’s attention to the offending percussionist

Does your face hurt??

It’s killing me!!

Hint- You are supposed to use mallets

Forgive my English. Timpani can "hurt" your face if the vibrations aren't completely in tune? Competing frequencies? You feel a blowback. Have to be sitting close enough to feel it.

Leto Cruise wrote:Forgive my English. Timpani can "hurt" your face if the vibrations aren't completely in tune? Competing frequencies? You feel a blowback. Have to be sitting close enough to feel it.

I know what you mean and have experienced similar before.
As an aside I don't know whether people intentionally misinterpret some posts around here just to crap all over them...

Leto Cruise wrote:

lost wrote:Please cite the research when you start a thread like this. I suspect if it were good research, there would already be a hypothesis to your question.

?? Cite what research? The whole post was a question? I mean try playing with an out of tune timpani and let me know how your face feels.

The title of the thread is awkward, but I’m assuming this is about the phenomenon where you come in with a loud note on the tuba at the same time as the tympani or bass drum has a similar note, and it interferes with your articulation. I’ve experienced this in a funk band where everything seems fine when I practice the parts on my own, but with the band at full volume and stage monitors pumping the bass and the bass drum back into my bell, so that if I’m not playing, I can feel the vibrations on my lips through the tuba, and if I’m playing my articulation can get fuzzy.

I’ve asked some of my local tuba-playing friends about this, and they’ve said they have experienced that in an orchestral setting, but didn’t really have a solution for it. I’ve tried playing with a harder articulation to try to overpower the amplified drums and bass, and articulating more softly to see if I could sneak around the interference, and neither really works. Maybe I just need to point my bell away from the monitors.

Leto Cruise wrote

Timpani damages your face internally when you produce competing pitches. What is the scientific explanation for this? Contrasting waves of frequency when the out-of-tune vibrations carry through your instrument? (And then later)...
Forgive my English. Timpani can "hurt" your face if the vibrations aren't completely in tune? Competing frequencies? You feel a blowback. Have to be sitting close enough to feel it.

I was going to comment that your first sentence made almost no sense at all (the statement or the questions), but if your second statement is meant to imply that English isn't your first language, perhaps that's an explanation.
In any case, I believe what is going on here is auditory masking. Bloke came close with his conjecture of out-of-phase cancellation. But if the tuba and timpani were truly out of phase, a third party (say a listener out in the hall), would perceive a reduced volume from both instruments. Which (I'm pretty sure) doesn't happen. But the tuba-player's perception is that he can't hear himself, leading to trying to out-play the timp (and maybe hurting one's face.)
Part of the explanation may lie in the fact that timpani (like most tuned percussion) produce inharmonic partials. Their complex waveform swamps whatever is playing in the same frequency band.
I have experienced this many times. If a timpani is playing a fff roll, and you are very close physically, trying to be heard, you feel like you're in an anechoic chamber, and there's not much you can do about it. That's why timpani should stay far, far away from tubas and basses and cellos.

Tubaken is the man.

This is the logic behind my 'Tuba tactics' idea of not even trying to be heard when there is a full tutti fffff. You are cancelled out esp by those timps. The brassy bass trombone sound cuts through but not the wider organ-like sound. Wait for the interference to dissipate and then come through ffffffff.

tbonesullivan wrote:I mean, I could see this happening if you were ready to play, and the timpani hit a huge note, scaring you and causing you to bash your face into your tuba.

This could cause pain, scientifically speaking.

Hup

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