TubeNet

A theme emerges from the bloke post “so besides welding rods …” and the end of DouglasJB’s post “Using Eb for orchestra …” and the “Best Tuba?” stryk post and especially TubaZc2012 ‘Thein tubas’:-

I have recently been trying out several new, genuine high priced ‘European’ makes etc F, EEb & CC horns and other $6K to $20K makes and was impressed with all the extra valves and workmanship. I was searching for a horn to retire with.

However, I fortunately always took along a couple of my own very second hand Cerverny ‘student’ cheapo models and an ancient Miraphone 183 that looks as if it has gangrene. When I compared the million dollar new horns to my own - side by side in the show rooms, I found that actually there was very little true difference. I do not think this was due only to my miserliness or my appalling playing.

That started me thinking 'What is so great about the million dollar horns?' What about the cheapest ones? Most instruments or their parts today are basically Chinese, I decided that it all depends on quality checks and success in copying.

Today, I have just returned from trying a Coppergate Gear4music - 6 valve F (B&S clone) and 5 valve CC copy of ??dunno.. These were one tenth of the top range prices and brand new. They just had to be ‘cheap Chinese, badly engineered, rough, out of tune, thin, no power etc etc etc’.

I can testify that the Coppergate horns I blew were a pleasure. They really help one play. For about $1500 they were perfectly respectable full professional models, IMHO. They slotted in extremely well, were in tune with themselves, all alternate fingerings in tune, all harmonics rang out from 1 to 16 odd. ( OK. The B&S clone still had the continental tuba hesitance on the 4th valve low CC/BBb/GG.)

Now
1. I have chosen my own $10 instruments over the years very carefully and have perhaps very good examples of normally average models – but they are available.
2. The ‘cheap n’ nasty' Chinese instruments I tried were perhaps the best of their species.
3. The workmanship on the million dollar models is probably incredible. And then??

Perhaps, we again are in a world of misrepresentation and psychological pressure concerning the costs and workmanship. Before we all go plastic (very soon, don’t kid yourselves) we should check the profit margins. The metal costs about $500, the workmanship in China $750 and elsewhere $3000. But from where does $8K, $10K, $20k come? We do not need horns that will last 100 years – and the modern metal won’t do that anyway. We just need horns that blow good.

The more you pay, the better you think your purchase is. I think we still need that revolution. Tubenet needs to have a tuba making branch.

Give me an icon and will clast it.

I'm a firm believer in "you get what you pay for". The issue with a lot of the Chinese horns, especially the really cheap ones, is that they simply aren't that high a level of original construction, starting at raw materials. The biggest thing that determines the "life" of a horn is the valves, and while the horns may play well now, if they are not valves made of a material that is durable, you can quickly start to have issues. Valve caps become loose and cant be tightened, bad solder work gives way, and inconsistently drawn or hydroformed tubes. Also they may not use the same level of foundry producing the original materials, which can lead to serious structural and durability problems.

There definitely are solid quality horns coming out of China, but these are more expensive than the Jin-bao or other similar horns. These are marketed by companies that have worked with the factories in China to improve the manufacture quality of the horns.

The "VERY BIG" priced tubas, those are not manufactured. Those are hand-crafted, in small quantities, with a level of fit and finish that you won't find in production line tubas. I guess as a trombone player, I am somewhat spoiled, as compared to Tubas and Euphoniums, Trombones are cheap. Modular trombones are easy to acquire, and you can readily swap in and out parts, something that simply isn't possible for instruments like Tubas.

There are no "million dollar tubas". The most expensive new contrabass tubas are in the $40K range and other suitable tubas are in the $10-20K range. A tubist's bass tuba is in the $10-20K range. Purchased used, both sizes are one half that amount or less. A brand new suitable Chinese contrabass tuba at the $2K range is amazing in price and many are owned by satisfied players. I suppose if the valves and whatnot are shot after ten years, one scraps it and buys another. Seems wasteful and decently crafted Chinese tubas have not been around that long so we will have to see. Buying a new Miraphone 186 for $8-10K, using it hard for ten years and investing $1-2K in necessary repairs to get it back where it needs to be is possible and is done all the time. The same Miraphone purchased new by an amateur player and used for 100 hours a year for 10 years may never need repairs other than cleaning and lubricating. This anonymous amateur player may have as good luck with the Chinese horn but haven't been around long enough to know.

Compared to the other instruments in the orchestra, tubas are pretty cheap. A violinist's bow may be more expensive than the tuba player's contrabass tuba. The violin easily can cost in six figures. Journey-level garage mechanics probably have as much money in their rolling tool box as tuba players have in their tubas and also need many other tools usually supplied by their employer. If they are their own employer, those supplied tools (lifts, specialized tools like alignment racks and electronic diagnostic tools) are purchased by the mechanic also. Stuff just costs what it costs.

Bigly?

10k for a tuba a rip off??

How about the 60K someone charged me to learn how to play it??

Three Valves wrote:10k for a tuba a rip off??

How about the 60K someone charged me to learn how to play it??

Now this is a truth

Perhaps, we again are in a world of misrepresentation and psychological pressure concerning the costs and workmanship. Before we all go plastic (very soon, don’t kid yourselves) we should check the profit margins. The metal costs about $500, the workmanship in China $750 and elsewhere $3000. But from where does $8K, $10K, $20k come? We do not need horns that will last 100 years – and the modern metal won’t do that anyway. We just need horns that blow good.

The more you pay, the better you think your purchase is. I think we still need that revolution. Tubenet needs to have a tuba making branch.

I understand your argument, but the costs that you're referencing are all essentially variable costs. In other words, those costs that go into the production of a single tuba. In addition, there are many fixed costs (facilities costs, tooling, maintenance, etc.), along with the cost of a prototype (which can be incredibly expensive) and several others that you are paying a portion of when you buy a tuba. Yes, they don't necessarily have anything to do with manufacturing a single tuba, but your business would not be solvent at some point if you weren't covering those costs, too. These costs add up, hence price tags north of $10,000.

As far as a revolution is concerned, I think you could make the argument that there already has been one. Not sure how old you are, but York copies have been $15,000+ for over 25 years. Adjusted for inflation, that is $25,000+ today. And today, you can buy one of the best York copies for $10,000. That's a steal. Honestly, they should probably be charging a lot more. Just my 2 cents....

2ba4t wrote:I think we still need that revolution. Tubenet needs to have a tuba making branch.

Maybe a timely opportunity for someone who thinks they can do it. B.A.C. has acquired Kanstul's tooling, and it's only speculation that they'd actually be interested in producing any of the tuba models. They might be willing to unload that part. Some of the personnel at the California factory may still be at loose ends, if you need extra help to run your tuba factory. I personally suspect Kanstul's MSRPs (e.g., $13K for a large Eb) had very little profit margin, considering how many they could expect to sell per year, and B.A.C. isn't going to do even as well.

North Americans and Europeans don't really have any business making things. They should just stick to mining and agriculture, and of course "innovation." That's going to get pretty tight after a while - agriculture is a non-renewable resource too, the way we do it - but it's the only way to go if you don't want to pay 1st world money for the things you use.

2ba4t's post here reminds me of a Satire I wrote and posted on TubeNet in the way back when.

So if we were talking Screwdrivers (tubas)…

Has anyone tried Pittstown Screwdrivers (tubas)? I was browsing the web and saw Pittstown brand screwdrivers (tubas) from Boat Dock Freight. The price is really low. Can anyone tell me what town or factory in China that they were made in? How do I know if the shank is really made of a steel alloy? Has anyone checked them for radioactivity? What type of plastic are the handles actually made of? Is one material better than the other? To my eye, the cheaper screwdrivers (tubas) look just like the Kraftperson and Slap-on screwdrivers (tubas) that cost so much more.
I can’t see a difference so the rest of the world must just be imagining there is a difference. Is it possible they are all made in the same factory and I would just be paying for the name if I get the more expensive ones? They all say their screwdriver (tuba) is superior to the other guy’s screwdriver (tuba), so I am getting confused. Aren’t all screwdrivers (tubas) the same? How do I know which brand to get? What sizes do I need? Will I ever need the really big ones? What if I want to use them in a one man shop? Do I need smaller ones for the “solo” work? I was hoping to work in a big shop (orchestra) one day so should I just get a really big screwdriver (tuba) now? What color handle should I get and does it really make a difference in how the screwdriver (tuba) responds?
I don’t want to spend more than the minimum amount of money but want to be the best mechanic (tubist) there ever was without actually putting the time and money into learning the trade of being a mechanic (tubist). I mean, anyone can turn a screwdriver (play a tuba), right? Can someone please validate my opinion that the people who spend more for their tools (tubas) are just stupid? I’m obviously smarter and more talented than anyone I personally know. So if I can’t tell a difference, there is no difference. Right?
Signed,
All Screwed Up

The answer is: Some people can tell the difference in quality and some can't. Some people can afford to pay for better quality and some can't. Some people see value or worth in owning a better tool and some people don't. If what you have or a cheaper new toy does what you need and/or want, stay with that.

If you find what you currently have makes you work harder and takes away from your joy, consider replacing whatever it is with something nicer if it will make you life easier and more enjoyable. Keep in mind that buying something you can't afford will make your life more stressful and therefore will fail the test.

Methinks the thread starter doesn't have any idea how much sheet brass actually costs. Also, there's the cost of the tooling, the machinery needed, and wear on those, all of which goes into the cost of the instrument. And the man hours for each tuba? I suspect the thread starter also has underestimated that as well. The ferrules need to be made, the valve casings made, etc etc.

Why are trombones so cheap? Because it's a freakin long TUBE, with two bends and a bell. The amount of bending, machining, etc is a fraction of what goes into a tuba. There are far fewer parts. This is why when I see Bach charging "Boutique" prices for production line horns, I definitely shake my head. Especially considering the Fit and Finish that my Bach trombones had new from the factory.

I can only talk to MY personal experience. I started "The Low Brass Werks" in 1999. The EU was not solid at that time. I was buying tubas from Germany, which was still using Deutschmarks. There was an exchange rate that was very favorable for the US. As soon as the EU went to Eurodollars, the exchange rate went berserk. A tuba I was able to sell for $5,500 (Gronitz PCM) and make a small profit, was COSTING me just under $6,000. I kept the profit margin the same (dollars NOT percent) and I heard (2nd & 3rd hand) that tubists across the US were concerned that now that the Gronitz' were becoming a popular instrument, that I 'bigly' increased selling prices. After 9/11, the US dollar CRASHED in Europe, and my prices had to go up accordingly. Again, my profit margin was dollars and NOT percent. My accountant told me I couldn't stay in business with such a small profit margin. Shortly thereafter, The Low Brass Werks was 'assimilated' by The Horn Guys.

I remember when when Floyd Cooley bought one of the first Yorkbrunners for about $10,000. I said, "Who's gonna pay 10 grand for a tuba?" HA!

My first IBM PC with a 10 MEGAbyte hard drive was $6,000. Times change.

Mark wrote:Mu first IBM PC with a 10 MEGAbyte hard drive was $6,000. Times change.

Yes, indeed. My first Macintosh Plus 1MB memory, 30MB drive: $3600. A Raspberry Pi will do about as much work for $35.

bloke wrote:If y'all fixed it all up so's everyone made $400K/yr., those $20K tubas wouldn't be such a big deal.
I know this would work, because I teech econonsense at a kolij.

And he doesn't even feel the need to drop the dudes name! What a legend.
Thank you for all of your sardonic comments. They're deeply appreciated.

.

tofu wrote:

swanben11 wrote:

bloke wrote:If y'all fixed it all up so's everyone made $400K/yr., those $20K tubas wouldn't be such a big deal.
I know this would work, because I teech econonsense at a kolij.

And he doesn't even feel the need to drop the dudes name! What a legend.
Thank you for all of your sardonic comments. They're deeply appreciated.

Doesn't matter..."In the long run we are all dead."

For a sort of general theory, it seems to me that tubists are using their extra mid-rehearsal rest time to read economic literature.

Actually, I studied Keynes [a nasty bit of work] - but mainly for his astonishing biography of Isaac Newton. As to my appreciation of costings - it is simple. If you can sell a Chinese CC for $1500 without a loss then its $750 on bits and $750 on labour. Yes, of course non-Chinese instruments will cost far more - but how far is fair? As to set up costs, research etc - all that comes out of your reasonable profit margin.

I am in the middle of a parallel debate with Dave Monette trumpets. I asked them for the cold science behind their claims!! They sent me 1000 words containing not one scientific fact. I then disproved Venturi, resonance, massive mouthpieces, shorter mouthpieces, their claims for historic pitches etc merely from google-isation. I am certain they will not respond even though I insisted that their system is brilliant and works - because of the psychology of players. The Emperor felt warm in his new clothes even though they were invisible.

I have not dared to do the same with Lefreque.

Every student of commerce knows that if you can fool the punter into paying a higher price, he will notice the improvement in quality. He has to justify his spending more.

2ba4t said

because of the psychology of players

I don't have the time or want to roll in the mud on this discussion, however I'll take a moment to say that personal perception is very important.
You can put down all the cold hard numbers you want but my mother thought BMW's were overpriced hokum because they didn't float over the potholes and cracks in the road as SMOOTHLY as her old Buick LeSabre did. How dare someone say my mom was wrong when she was indeed right about what she could see and feel. The taunt suspension on a BMW wouldn't do my 40 mph driving mom any good since she took the turns at 20 mph. Just because you can't/won't perceive and/or measure something doesn't mean it isn't. The interface between the human and the machine itself is where individuals will perceive "quality". Just as being able to comfortably reach the controls of a car makes a positive impact on the driving experience, ergonomics and sensory feedback affect how well an individual will play a particular instrument. And, no two people are 100% identical. So for someone to suggest, "A Blatt 2000 is the best widget for me. Everyone else should want/play a Blatt 2000 or they are just stupid." is very arrogant.

I never regretted the money I spent on nicer things that I use(d) and thoroughly enjoy. I regret the money I have spent on crap I don't remember or do not use.

Matt Walters wrote:2ba4t said

because of the psychology of players

I don't have the time or want to roll in the mud on this discussion, however I'll take a moment to say that personal perception is very important.
You can put down all the cold hard numbers you want but my mother thought BMW's were overpriced hokum because they didn't float over the potholes and cracks in the road as SMOOTHLY as her old Buick LeSabre did. How dare someone say my mom was wrong when she was indeed right about what she could see and feel. The taunt suspension on a BMW wouldn't do my 40 mph driving mom any good since she took the turns at 20 mph. Just because you can't/won't perceive and/or measure something doesn't mean it isn't. The interface between the human and the machine itself is where individuals will perceive "quality". Just as being able to comfortably reach the controls of a car makes a positive impact on the driving experience, ergonomics and sensory feedback affect how well an individual will play a particular instrument. And, no two people are 100% identical. So for someone to suggest, "A Blatt 2000 is the best widget for me. Everyone else should want/play a Blatt 2000 or they are just stupid." is very arrogant.

I never regretted the money I spent on nicer things that I use(d) and thoroughly enjoy. I regret the money I have spent on crap I don't remember or do not use.

As I tell my son constantly, perception is everything. Especially in modern day America. Facts don't matter as much as feelings. Just look at people here toeing the line about no politics, desperate to make their Feelings known. To these people, and to so many others, facts are not king. We all have things that we elevate because of our feelings. For me, I owned a 1989 Ford Crown Victoria. To me, it was the best car I have ever owned or driven. Was it the best car made? Probably not, but my perception of it is that it was an amazing car. I imagine the same applies to instruments - we all have our favorites, regardless of objectivity.

2ba4t wrote: I then disproved Venturi, resonance, massive mouthpieces, shorter mouthpieces, their claims for historic pitches etc merely from google-isation. I am certain they will not respond even though I insisted that their system is brilliant and works - because of the psychology of players.

I would really like to see this evidence you used to "disprove" concepts such as Venturi, Heavy Mouthpieces, etc. Back at the 'on hiatus' trombone forum, Sam Burtis was an active contributor, and he did quite a bit of experimentation regarding the effects of the distance between the mouthpiece throat and the venturi in the leadpipe. Some mouthpieces definitely worked better a bit farther out, and there are even a few brass instruments that have an adjustable mouthpiece receiver to facilitate this process. I really doubt that what they are experiencing is placebo effect.

Most of the "development" of brass instruments was much more experimentation / trial and error than "scientific research". At their core, brass instruments are single ended tubes that use the "mouthpiece effect" and "Bell effect" to act like a open ended tube harmonically. A lot of the "quirks" that instruments have are side effects of this basic concept. This is also why many instruments, including trombone, don't actually have a "fundamental" pitch. Oscilloscope analysis confirms that what people hear when a pedal tone fundamental played is only the various overtones. There actually is very little to none of the actual fundamental pitch.