Why so many valves??

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2ba4t
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Why so many valves??

Post by 2ba4t »

Because the configuration does not allow for a pull on the 4th slide, I am contemplating putting a dependant rotary valve on to the fourth valve tubing. I fear that putting it in the bugle might spoil the incredible beauty of this little tuba's voice. It would be the correct length to add a half tone to that 4th valve. On an F, that would be the length of a CC 2nd valve. It means that F# and CC# can be played fast and accurately.

In my mock up, I found that it adds very little weight. There is room to give it a slide trigger. This allows all notes to be played in perfect tune right down. You can combine 4/5 + 2 as a flatter 4 + 1. The lowest 1234 and 5 pulled out actually can be used instead of the 1st harmonic for an easy slur - FF to FF#.

Why do so many instruments have more than 5?

Any advice.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by tbonesullivan »

Which Tuba do you have? Usually the only tubas I see with more than 5 valves are the Eb and F tubas, which really need them for proper intonation in the low range.

Anyhow, "slot-in" valves have been used with instruments for years. You can probably just replace the 4th valve tuning slide with it, depending on the configuration of your horn. Also finding an appropriate sized valve to put anywhere in the bugle is going to be problematic. I wouldn't put a valve anywhere after the main tuning slide.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by tbonesullivan »

It should be noted that these problems are NOT limited to Tubas. It is something all brass instruments deal with in some way. Trumpets don't have the fundamental pedal tone, because the bore / length ratio is too high. Trombones, Euphoniums, Tubas, they all have the fundamental note, and the notes between the fundamental and second harmonic are often note present, or really out of tune. The distance between the fundamental and the second harmonic is an octave, which means that there simply aren't enough valves or slide room to make it work.

Stepping back a moment, it's important to remember that with a valved instrument, the more valves you use in combination, the more out of tune it will be. The 5th and 6th valves are there to help get the instrument in tune between the fundamental and second harmonic, just like the second valve on a bass trombone is there to help make a fully chromatic scale possible. There's only so much pushing and pulling of slides that can be done on a valved instrument, and it's much easier to just have valves make it happen.

With a BBb tuba, due to the lower range, standard literature doesn't take it nearly as far down in its range, so the value of having the extra valves is more limited, as with the 4th valve by itself you get a nice in tune F. with a CC tuba, you get a nice in tune G, If you want that F, you could use 1+4, but with a 5th valve that is 1 1/4 steps, you end up with a nice in tune F with 4 + 5.

So yeah, more valves definitely makes it easier on the player, provided it's not the Viennese 6 valve system.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by Three Valves »

3 works!!
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by Patrase »

I have 6 (six) on my Fafner Bb tuba. Mainly because I play in the low range and need push button intonation, not having time (or the desire) to pull slides or push triggers. The 5th and 6th are flat half tone and flat whole tone. Both are dependant. If I only had 5 valves and the 5th was dependant I would want it to be the flat half tone, as I tend to use it more in the manner you suggested.

I have a 5 valve Eb and am tempted to put a flat half tone valve as a dependant valve, just like you with your F tuba
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by Reptilian »

Chics dig it.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by Patrase »

Chics might dig it but my band mates mocketh me.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by tbonesullivan »

Patrase wrote:I have 6 (six) on my Fafner Bb tuba. Mainly because I play in the low range and need push button intonation, not having time (or the desire) to pull slides or push triggers. The 5th and 6th are flat half tone and flat whole tone. Both are dependant. If I only had 5 valves and the 5th was dependant I would want it to be the flat half tone, as I tend to use it more in the manner you suggested.

I have a 5 valve Eb and am tempted to put a flat half tone valve as a dependant valve, just like you with your F tuba
That Fafner must look quite interesting with the extra valves. Are they actuated with your left hand, or right? Having them dependent is definitely interesting, but also does help keep the main air column less cluttered. I had thought for a while about picking up a nice old used 3 valve BBb tuba, and having a 4th valve added.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by Patrase »

That Fafner must look quite interesting with the extra valves. Are they actuated with your left hand, or right? Having them dependent is definitely interesting, but also does help keep the main air column less cluttered. I had thought for a while about picking up a nice old used 3 valve BBb tuba, and having a 4th valve added.

It looks like a giant Meinl Weston/Melton 46 F tuba. Valves are operated by left hand, just like an F tuba. It's actually really easy to get your head around the fingering. More so than a 5 valve instrument IMHO. I got advice from Mr Tucci to keep the 5th valve out of the main column as I was told they tried a 5th valve at the factory but found it added stuffiness. One valve came straight from Meinle as a bolt on attachment/slide. The work for the 6th valve was done by Ed Diefes, on a 'don't worry too much about cosmetics (since I bought it used)' budget. My friend who is a pro player thinks it's a bit odd to not be able to use the 5th and 6th valve independently but it works for me in my context. Occasionally when playing simpler music it is tempting to take off the flat whole tone, to save a bit of weight, as I don't use it as much as the flat whole tone. It's a heavy bugger but it's well balanced so the weight is not noticed when playing, only when moving it around.


The extra valves have really come into play since I improved my ability to match my playing to the pitch of others. That skill came about courtesy of a $5 tuning drone app and has been a big help to my playing.
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Re: Why so many valves??

Post by 2ba4t »

Thank you all very much for your insights. I see now that this is a well-trodden path.

I have now put on the dependant 5th on to the 4th tubing. This is a 100-year-old 3 +1 piston Hawkes hardly used vintage Eb. It was in bits for decades in someone's garage. The reason I chose a dependent valve are:

I did not want to compromise the instrument's truly remarkable bugle and sweet voice. It has a perfect air column.
I could construct an entirely new 4th valve slide with the rotary on - so I was always able to use the original slide if I goofed up.
I made the 5th slide trombone-like and put a trigger for the thumb of the right hand [immediately above it]
I made a trigger like those on the posh euphoniums for the thumb of the left hand to operate the rotary.

Now E and AA as 4+5 are perfectly in tune and resonate.
AAb is 2/4/5. A little longer than 4+1.
GG sits nicely with 234 but if sharp 345.
GGb is OK with 134 but if sharp 2345 with 5 pulled
FF is OK with 1234
EE is OK 12345 with 5 pulled.

This is an improvement on the comp system which works only for single valves with the 4th, in that I can add tubing to all 3 valve and 4 valve combinations.

Now I have to scrape off the gallons of spilt solder, make it look vaguely professional and explain to my wife where that spoon handle (paddle) disappeared to.
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