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I've been getting used to having a 4th valve, and there's just this one problem, valve combinations that leave the 3rd valve up while the valves on either side go down. Ring finger doesn't do that very well. It can be made to happen, but not easily or reliably.

So it just occurred to me, while "practicing" (a.k.a. noodling around), that for the one fingering I would really use, _ 2 _ 4, for E and A on Eb tuba, there's no law that says I have to use finger 2 for valve 2, and it's much easier to use my index finger to depress the 2nd valve in this case. I play other instruments where my fingers move to different locations, so while it seems odd for tuba, it isn't like it's wholly unnatural. Anyone willing to confess to doing this?

Another argument for the 3 + 1 configuration I think. However I don't see why you couldn't do it as you are describing. The tendons in the hand unfortunately are not really designed for complete independent movement of the fingers over their entire range of motion. I think the middle and ring fingers are particularly well connected, so they want to move together.

Rotary valves help with this, too.

I wouldn't recommend moving your fingers around between the buttons, that seems like more trouble than it's worth, and hard to sustain it. That said, I probably use 235 more often than 24, because it's easier to do.

tbonesullivan wrote:Another argument for the 3 + 1 configuration I think. However I don't see why you couldn't do it as you are describing. The tendons in the hand unfortunately are not really designed for complete independent movement of the fingers over their entire range of motion. I think the middle and ring fingers are particularly well connected, so they want to move together.

The flexor tendons in the ring, middle, and pinky fingers are interconnected. The ring and middle finger share an extensor tendon. All of which makes moving those three fingers independently exceptionally difficult.

Play some piano "finger" exercises!!!

Also......... place your hand flat and spread open on a table, desk, etc. Slowly and methodically, lift each finger ....... one at a time, while keeping all of the others flat on the surface. It'll take some work, concentration, and a little bit of time, but eventually, you'll get it. It's not all that difficult.

I saw a soloist at the Mpls Tuba-Euphonium Master Class last spring doing the Swap Finger Hop. Seemed very awkward to me, because I don't have that particular 3rd finger issue, but he had no trouble with it.

paulver wrote:Play some piano "finger" exercises!!!

Also......... place your hand flat and spread open on a table, desk, etc. Slowly and methodically, lift each finger ....... one at a time, while keeping all of the others flat on the surface. It'll take some work, concentration, and a little bit of time, but eventually, you'll get it. It's not all that difficult.

Careful, though. Too much "exercise" can damage your tendons. Just make sure that they're for flexibility and not "strength".

paulver wrote:Play some piano "finger" exercises!!!

.

Yup, this.

Been a piano player since I was five years old, and did those exercises through college & beyond...... I'm 68 now. No problems yet!!

bort wrote:That said, I probably use 235 more often than 24, because it's easier to do.

That gets me closer to Eb than E, and I like how my 5th valve is tuned as it is. But 123 works. 24 is more of an alternative fingering at the moment.

My little finger is shorter than the average little finger and I have a hard time getting the leverage to play the 4th valve with any other valve. I have used a 1241 and it doesn't make a difference but on an Olds 099-4, the 4th valve is almost impossible for me to hold down. With a piston valve, the button is where it is but I would think a rotary lever could be adjusted for position. A 3+1 could be a solution, too.

I've never finger swapped. I always consider it better to reduce any extraneous movement. Moving fingers around to different valves while trying to depress valves is eventually going to impede technique.

I spend a lot of time in the pedal register doing exercises to keep my fingers used to the necessary coordination. I learned a good exercise at a summer festival years ago - (Context, CC tuba, pedal register): C D E D C; C Db Eb C Db; Db Eb F Eb Db; Db D E Db D; etc... (pattern quarter, quarter, quarter, quarter, whole).

I've found the same thing studying fretted instruments - There are finger patterns that are really awkward and unnatural when you start, and it's easier at the time to figure out workarounds. In the long run, the easiest thing is to put in the time to make the unnatural movements feel natural.

I had a tuba student whose main instrument was piano. Not only was he a better sight-reader than I will ever be, but he also routinely shifted fingers from one button to the next whenever it seemed convenient.

Donn wrote: That gets me closer to Eb than E, and I like how my 5th valve is tuned as it is. But 123 works. 24 is more of an alternative fingering at the moment.

As unnatural as 2 4 feels, I never really had a problem with it... until I got old(er) and arthritic. If the note is sustained or a slow note, I can do the 2 4 for the better tuning. If 16ths or even fast moving 8th notes, which would create an awkward fingering pattern with the 2 4, I cheat and use 1 2 3. I won't be on that note long enough for anyone but the most sensitive ear to notice, anyway.

Frankentuba suggestions: IMHO
If this is a rotary, just rig up a long rod up to your left hand and control the fourth valve with that. You need some 1mm 'music wire' to make a spring, brass rod, hollow brass rod etc, a posh spoon handle for the paddle and a little imagination. Three minutes and you can re-engage the original paddle.
Alternatively make your fourth valve slide trombone-like and either rig up a sprung trigger or just learn where it should go for a full semitone relative to the fourth slide length. For an Eb this will be the length of a Bb second valve.
Alternatively, stick an old rotary (non leaking) dependently on your fourth valve tubing.
Obviously a tech will do any of this better probably, but if you polish everything really brightly and then polyurethane lacquer it you can get away with murder..

I have a hard time with that combination on my euph, at least in faster passages.

Donn wrote:Can you hold down 2 and 4 and leave 3 up?

Yes. Practice.

Turns out I was doing 2-4 routinely without thinking about it... until a bout of tendonitis this spring in the extensor pollicis longus - friggin' opposite side of the hand! Painful! Anyway, I favored 2-4 for fingering ease/laziness in certain oompah stuff. Again, never thought about it, just did it.

Years ago I played saxophone a little and found online a set of hand exercises. I’ve continued to do them and think they help. Put your hands together with fingers pointing up. Stretch your index fingers by pushing each against the other alternately giving a good stretch. Do this for all fingers. I repeat 10-times. Then do it with two adjacent fingers. You can stretch the thumbs up and down, too. I haven’t tried doing two and four together, but think I’ll give it a try.