Steve's Clinic: Solving Low Register Issues

[peterbas]

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[Radar]

The results speak for themself. The video demonstration has very clear low register notes with great attach and focus. Steve is showing us his approach to how he gets that great tone, and it seems to be working. My experience with playing long tones and listening and adjusting for the best sound is that I do need to adjust the size and shape of the oral cavity to get the best tone in the lowest registers of the horn, this is especially true when playing in the trigger range on Bass Trombone. We can argue the terminology being used (as a retired electronic technician the analogy of impedance matching works for me), what is hard to argue is the great sound Steve is getting on an smaller Tuba below the staff.

[groth]

Jacobs studied voice at the Curtis Institute and even was offered a scholarship as a voice major. He even gave lessons to singers.
You don't have to agree with him but please stop making comments before you read up on him.

Yes I feel like the wheel is trying to be reinvented here.

[stevennorsworthy]

'GROTH' (prior above), Please be specific about the wheel. Where in the pedagogical literature can you find the explicit teaching? Maybe it is just passed on through 'oral' tradition (pun intended) and hence a large number of brass players already clearly know this, right? I am not omniscient so if it is out there, I'd love to see it. So, since the wheel is vastly well understood, then everyone practices it accordingly and they all understand it so well that they are spot-on accurate setting up their input match into the instrument. I would hope that is true but it is probably not true.

[tbonesullivan]

Jacobs studied voice at the Curtis Institute and even was offered a scholarship as a voice major. He even gave lessons to singers.
You don't have to agree with him but please stop making comments before you read up on him.

Yes. "Wind & Song". However I feel, like many others, that Jacobs' almost outright dismissal of embouchure types, problems, etc, to be an issue. His breathing techniques? Incredible, and something that everyone should learn. The same with his philosophy on the musical aspect of playing.

His ideas on lip shape and embouchure? I think Reinhardt and Doug Elliott have a much better view and theory on that, and it's not just because I'm a trombone player. I also once had a double buzz problem, and breathing was definitely not the issue. It was fatigue and sometimes lack of sufficient rest for my lips that caused me to be unable to properly maintain the shape. So no, the lips do not "just buzz".

I ted to dislike teaching approaches that dismiss ideas that really have worked for others out of hand. I love Christian Lindberg as a player, but his outright dismissal of mouthpiece and free buzzing as a practice and teaching tool was a bit off putting.

[Doug Elliott]

Maybe it should be noted that Reinhardt also went to Curtis, before Jacobs, got a gig for 10 years, then went back and finished.

They both had the same training but arrived at very different conclusions.

[stevennorsworthy]

Tbonesullivan, (above),

I very much believe in free buzzing and it improves the sympathetic response of the lips to vibrate the note more easily. I believe in Doug's teaching concepts. He has been a great mentor to me for the past 20 years. That being said, the limitations of free buzzing…. the tongue/jaw/throat/cavity are not in the same position as the actual playing no matter how hard we try because the air requirement for the standing wave and the input impedance matching requirement for that note looking into the instrument are not the same as atmospheric impedance of the room we are buzzing into!

Steve

[groth]

Tbonesullivan, (above),

I very much believe in free buzzing and it improves the sympathetic response of the lips to vibrate the note more easily. I believe in Doug's teaching concepts. He has been a great mentor to me for the past 20 years. That being said, the limitations of free buzzing…. the tongue/jaw/throat/cavity are not in the same position as the actual playing no matter how hard we try because the air requirement for the standing wave and the input impedance matching requirement for that note looking into the instrument are not the same as atmospheric impedance of the room we are buzzing into!

Steve

The wheel...it will always be round, as with the shape of doorways. I do agree with the above statement and free blow all the time, if I didn't my rehearsals would be much different.

[stevennorsworthy]

Free buzzing was making me stronger in the upper register 'for sure', but it was not producing the right input impedance match, and therefore it was producing incorrect sound. I will continue to use free buzzing, it is good, but it is perhaps too one-dimensional because we must have an exact impedance match, and we will never come even close. Without this input impedance match, I would have not figured out how to get a booming instant-on sound out of a relatively small tuba. I am using this concept and getting a big centered trombone sound out of a medium-bore Bach 36. When I am too closed or too open, the Bach 36 is either too dull or too snarky because it isn't matched. I am working on a "Steve's Clinic: Trombone Centering" video right now, demonstrating this... sometime next week or so.

[groth]

Free buzzing was making me stronger in the upper register 'for sure', but it was not producing the right input impedance match, and therefore it was producing incorrect sound. I will continue to use free buzzing, it is good, but it is perhaps too one-dimensional because we must have an exact impedance match, and we will never come even close. Without this input impedance match, I would have not figured out how to get a booming instant-on sound out of a relatively small tuba. I am using this concept and getting a centerd big trombone sound out of a Bach 36. When I am too closed or too open, the Bach 36 is either too dull or too snarky because it isn't matched. I am working on a "Steve's Clinic: Trombone Centering" video right now, demonstrating this... sometime next week or so.

Can you do another video of you sustaining this big booming tone for at least 8 beats with perfect intonation @ Fortissimo?

[stevennorsworthy]

Can you do another video of you sustaining this big booming tone for at least 8 beats with perfect intonation @ Fortissimo?

[/quote]
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I'll delegate that video to you, 'groth', since I am working on the trombone video! LOL

[MackBrass]

Steve is spot on with his observations and that the cavity plays a huge part in sound as well as all the other physical parts of the body that are involved when playing. There is a very subtle change in our Throat, embouchure, oral cavity air stream and whatever not mentioned that plays a vital role on production of what we all perceive as the perfect sound.

Here is a simple test, start with playing a long tone on the best sounding note you have. While sustaining that pitch, close your mouth until your teeth touch and notice how the sound begins to become oinky. Now the question is why? The air hasn't stopped, the vibrations haven't stopped, the pitch hasn't stopped, so what has changed? We can all shake our heads and agree with the obvious but when analyzing the physical aspects of what's going on it's only then you can begging to understand why.

Steve has chosen to use the F tuba in his demo because on this particular instrument the few notes below the fundamental are the trickiest to play of all the different models we as tuba players may need in our arsenal. Every note we play has it's own slot, it's own position, it's own physical demands and does call for subtle changes within our physical body or in this case, oral cavity, throat, chest embouchure etc.. that are needed in order to perform them at higher and higher levels. At the pro level, this is achieved because of years of practice and the development of extreme efficiency. This may be part of the reason younger or less experienced players steer away from f tuba especially the rotary kind, because this takes a lot longer to develope and the immediate reward is not seen unless hours of practice are given first.

If we didn't have to make subtle changes from one note to the next we could get away from having to adjusting from low middle and high registers but that's not the case.

Knowledge and abilities from the 1940 to 50's is vastly different than that of today. What worked back then was definitely more elementary because the level of abilities across the board was not as high as what we see today. There was a time when the VW concerto was only played by a few elite players, now its it's played by just about anyone who has a few years of good training practicing and teaching behind them.

Lastly, physical and genetic makeup is the other half of what goes into a great sound. This is why, as stated earlier in this thread, Gene will always sound like Gene and Chester or Roger will always sound like Chester or Roger. Poverati and any world class singer will tell you that the cavity found in their chest and throat and in between they were genetically given at birth had a lot to do with the beauty found in their tone production.

[The Big Ben]

All very interesting stuff. Don't know what it all means but it's interesting. This is the kind of stuff Real Tuba Men discuss up at the bar in the Tuba Tavern. A trumpet doofus such as myself is sitting on a little three legged stool in the corner.

Carry on.

[peterbas]

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[timothy42b]

Here is a simple test, start with playing a long tone on the best sounding note you have. While sustaining that pitch, close your mouth until your teeth touch and notice how the sound begins to become oinky. Now the question is why? The air hasn't stopped, the vibrations haven't stopped, the pitch hasn't stopped, so what has changed? We can all shake our heads and agree with the obvious but when analyzing the physical aspects of what's going on it's only then you can begging to understand why.

Yes, analysis. That is the true heresy that Steve is bringing to this table - that analysis does NOT always produce paralysis.

Now to your point. I have tried closing my teeth while playing quietly, and response becomes difficult instantly. Interestingly by adjusting my motion (I'm a 3A like Steve, and have also had a few lessons with Doug, not nearly enough though) I can find a place where the notes do speak. So that suggests 1) the correct angle/pressure is necessary but not sufficient and 2) closing the teeth does have an effect, exactly how it works is unknown. In my case the correct motion is primary and the oral cavity fine tuning. That may be because I haven't reached the skill levels of some of you. Steve says the size of the tuba mouthpiece makes the motion part less important for him and the oral cavity becomes primary.

[stevennorsworthy]

All,

I hope you watched the 'Contrabass F Trombone with Tuba Mouthpiece' video. Let me say this about that:
When I am up there on high Eb-5, the tongue is arched so high that the middle of my tongue is almost touching the roof of my hard palate, and that creates both a very small resonant space but it also creates a high pressure zone that further compresses the air and accelerates it into the aperture. Then when I am down in the bottom range on low G-1, my tongue lies very flat, the back of my throat feels very open like the uvula is lifted way up and there is a watermelon I am trying to swallow, my mouth corners are very 'forward' to get more lower lip into the cup, and my horn angle is not really any lower. I literally learned that, as a substitute for horn angle changes, what is really needed at the end of the day is oral cavity size control, lower lip control, jaw angle control, and air compression control. I think you will see in the video that I am not substantially changing horn angle from Eb-5 to G-1. A year ago, I was trying to do this with horn angle. I got off the training wheels and now have a better way of accomplishing the task, but it is substantially harder to learn that using horn angle.

[Dan Tuba]

Here is a simple test, start with playing a long tone on the best sounding note you have. While sustaining that pitch, close your mouth until your teeth touch and notice how the sound begins to become oinky. Now the question is why? The air hasn't stopped, the vibrations haven't stopped, the pitch hasn't stopped, so what has changed? We can all shake our heads and agree with the obvious but when analyzing the physical aspects of what's going on it's only then you can begging to understand why.

Yes, analysis. That is the true heresy that Steve is bringing to this table - that analysis does NOT always produce paralysis.

Now to your point. I have tried closing my teeth while playing quietly, and response becomes difficult instantly. Interestingly by adjusting my motion (I'm a 3A like Steve, and have also had a few lessons with Doug, not nearly enough though) I can find a place where the notes do speak. So that suggests 1) the correct angle/pressure is necessary but not sufficient and 2) closing the teeth does have an effect, exactly how it works is unknown. In my case the correct motion is primary and the oral cavity fine tuning. That may be because I haven't reached the skill levels of some of you. Steve says the size of the tuba mouthpiece makes the motion part less important for him and the oral cavity becomes primary.

"Paralysis by Analysis"

The key to understanding this concept and enjoying the "fruit" of the application of this concept to one's playing/performance is knowing when/where or time and place to "analyze." From my understanding of the original idea or concept put forth, "performances" aren't the time or place to conduct an analysis of the mechanical/physical aspects involved in creating a musical statement or experience for the listener.

In my opinion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with "analyzing" your performances, to include all of the physical and/or mental actions/activities/thoughts that happened during the performances "afterwards." Trying to "multitask" by analyzing and/or manipulating mechanical/physical aspects of playing an instrument can be too much for some people to handle while trying to create a musical product. Utilizing exercises, scales, or other fundamental "drills" in one's practice that are simple enough for the player to "analyze" the mechanics involved in production can possibly help the player develop greater efficiency, thus allowing the player when it's time to perform, to create an even better musical product/experience/statement. I think this is where "two heads are better than one," meaning, that having a "teacher" to help with the analysis "process" can be extremely beneficial. To my understanding, the person who put forth the "Paralysis by Analysis" concept in brass pedagogy tried to keep most of the analysis process to himself while he was teaching his students. That's why you don't hear the same "approach" or "experience" shared by many of this teacher's former students. Sure, there are a few ideas or concepts that seemed to be "universal" in this teacher's approach, however way different "experiences" that have been shared by this teacher's former students. "Tuba people TV" is really fun and interesting to watch. FWIW, I never had a lesson with this teacher. However, I have tried to glean whatever knowledge that I can from this teacher's approach to brass and "musical" performance. I am sure that this teacher would be extremely delighted to know that musicians have continued to develop his concepts while developing new concepts/ideas/approaches to brass playing in hopes of achieving new levels of brass performance.

Steve, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

[peterbas]

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[peterbas]

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[timothy42b]

This is your thought train of what your doing to make a beautiful sound but that doesn't mean this is how it psychally works.

This is true. Steve's conception works for him. It may not be the real physics that is happening. He thinks of transfer functions and transmission lines while I think of three coupled systems and eigenvectors. We may both be wrong. But there is no doubt his approach works for performance.

What we need to make a note is air pressure in the mouth. Low for low notes and high pressure for high notes. this has been measured numerous times. The when need air through the lips with but keeping the pressure in the mouth constant otherwise your playing a different note.

Same objection. This is how you think of it. That may not be the real physics.

We need the throat to be open all the time to keep the same pressure we create in our lungs to be the same pressure (=note) in our mouth.

No, that's clearly wrong. Going way back to Farkas we've known the glottis is a valve to control air flow and to some extent articulation. More recently James Markey gave an excellent lecture discussing it, and the MRI evidence now proves it. However doing that consciously can be counterproductive.

By the way, the pressure in the mouth is barely above atmospheric. I don't know if you have looked at the units next to the numbers in those studies, but mouth pressure is so low that in part of the cycle air can move backwards. I've measure my own with an improvised manometer, and it's low enough I can get a seal with an aquarium tube in the corner of my mouth.