BrassThoughts-Embouchure Matters

[brendanige]

Hi everyone,

I've started a new blog on brass pedagogy! Here are some of my thoughts on the topic of embouchure. It has been interesting watching some discourse that has been going on.... Here's some more thoughts and opinions to throw in the mix. There are some articles there and many more forthcoming. There are already interviews with Aubrey Foard and Joe Lefevre posted!

https://brassthoughts.wixsite.com/brend ... re-matters" target="_blank" target="_blank

Brendan

[brianf]

In this there is a comment in this:

Mr. Arnold Jacobs, talked about the firm corners and flat chin

While I have heard many use the term firm or tight corners, I never heard these words from Mr. Jacobs!

[brendanige]

I swear I've read in the books that he talked of "plenty of motivated air through firm corners." Maybe I should try to find the source and cite it...He didn't seem to encourage setting them though. I could be wrong though! Thanks for reading!

[tbonesullivan]

This video is compiled from various videos of Arnold Jacobs when he was discussing the embouchure. It does seem, for the most part, as he looked at it mainly was a way to make buzzing happen, and that through training our brains learned to use it like our vocal cords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_a7o7-QiYU" target="_blank

[stevennorsworthy]

I strongly suggest we do an immediate PAUSE for the moment UNTIL we do a literature study. Otherwise, we are not 'respecting' the great work and analysis that has already been done over the past few decades. There is far too much opining that has little to do with reality.

For example:
"Experimental Investigations of Lip Motion in Brass Instrument Playing"
http://www.acoustics.ed.ac.uk/wp-conten ... h_2009.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

[brianf]

Here is the place to see most everything written about Mr. Jacobs:

https://www.windsongpress.com/writings- ... ld-jacobs/" target="_blank

I have an advantage with this since it is on my computer and I can do a word search on everything easily. Did a search on "corners" and the only mention is to breathe from the corners on the mouth at times. No mention of "firm corners" or "tight corners." I also searched the transcripts of masterclass videos including those on the embouchure video on youtube - nothing.

[brendanige]

Hi Mr. Frederiksen,

Thank you again for your response and doing that research. I love what you do for the community and if I find I am completely wrong in my claim, rest assured, I will change my wording. I am not one who needs to be right, but delights in being wrong because then I have learned something. I am not at home right now where I have access to my books (one in particular I have in mind). But here are a couple things as "proof" of my claim. I understand that embouchure analysis was not a big part of Mr. Jacobs' pedagogy as a whole, but he did seem to have knowledge of embouchure and use it when it would be efficient to do so. I think this is the beauty of his teaching. He was flexible and willing to say contradictory things to different students to get the sonic (song) result. Like I also said in my article, I am a product of Wind and Song. I don't really waste my time thinking about embouchure unless it isn't a waste of time.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77427" target="_blank" target="_blank

In this link someone who has "opinions based on studies with Arnold Jacobs, who advocated firm corners in order to develop a functional embouchure" claims Arnold Jacobs "would have his students play long tones on the tuba or buzz melodies the mouthpiece while looking at yourself in a mirror to see if the corners are staying firm. He was a strong believer in a concept he called multiplicity of senses, where you could hear, see, and (to a certain degree) feel what is going on." I have heard this in my lessons with other Jacobs students. I've been made to do this and most of my teachers studied with Jacobs directly, or were Jacobs "grandstudents." I'm glad there's a source that is written and chronicled saying this happened with Jacobs, himself. Maybe you've never heard him talk of firm corners because they were already present in the players he was working with on video and they just needed to prioritize motivated, musical air. Leaving out unneeded information is something that is well within his potential as a teacher (seems to be one of the cornerstones of his teaching) and something I strive for each day. I feel like people (not you) watch one or two videos about Arnold Jacobs and then conclude he is voodoo magic and bogus. That was more what I was trying to dispel by saying "he talked of firm corners." He had more awareness than people are giving him credit for. True expertise comes from a wealth of knowledge and being able to offer what is applicable from that wealth. I think it's present in him.

In his Hal Leonard "Special Studies for Tuba", Mr. Jacobs writes "Continuous sound in itself is embouchure building and when it is carried throughout the range of the horn (and we must include dynamic range as well as pitch range) we will certainly bring about embouchure strength."

With this anecdotal evidence which I have written, as well as verbal account from other of his students, surely this embouchure strength might refer to but, certainly not be limited to, the corners?

I understand that Mr. Jacobs wanted to allow his students to arrive at efficiency through the music. I have heard that he was also explicit at times. Very high level players don't need to and shouldn't be thinking about embouchure. Maybe in some students lessons Mr. Jacobs knew they needed to hear that. I will continue to research this matter. There is one more piece of literature I want to refer to. Thank you so much for challenging to get the right information and for chiming in!

[stevennorsworthy]

There's an old joke, where the voice teacher tells the student, "Make for me a flower!" In music or athletics, there are many good performers who play relatively well despite playing with inefficient form. 'Good intentions' don't automatically correct bad form and produce the best results. I cannot 'will myself' to play trombone as well as Bill Watrous or Joe Alessi just because I can hear their great results and let their sound model in my head drive me to their technical level. How many times did Tiger Woods peel apart his technique even when he was at the top of his game? He came back better. He could not 'will himself' into a more efficient swing. This is likely to stir up a hornet's nest, but please allow dissent without disparagement. We are all here to make progress. Cheers! 'Steve'

[brianf]

When it comes to information about Mr. Jacobs, there is the word from students (with their interpretations) and the word directly from Mr. Jacobs. I have an advantage over everyone because I was his assistant and made videos during masterclasses. Today I am going through these videos putting them together for a video series (my current project - another story). As a part of this I have had a lot of clips transcribed - the word directly from Mr. Jacobs. This is from a masterclass he did at the University of Northern Iowa.

I always take the attention off the embouchure.
Students fight with me because they want me to work on the lip, on the embouchure.
And we get good results, but we do it in a different way.
The embouchure always starts to work very, very quickly, and they're always very surprised.
I just don't bother much with it. It has to buzz.
So, I do have range and so forth, and I do teach buzzing, but I don't teach a correct embouchure.
I just teach buzzing. But with the ring, not buzzing of that type.
How would you go about altering an embouchure that you know
doesn't work because of the muscle structure, and it just function as well as it should because of placement?
I always do that through assignments of music, rather than through the actual offering of embouchure.
Because the embouchure should be considered a variable,
in other words you don't stabilize the embouchure, you stabilize the music.
And by trial and error they find where it works.
Then I put assignments in that you may and you might say a challenge to the embouchure,
that's going to demand change, like articulated intervals,
broken rhythms and interval forms, and so forth, with fairly wide range. And the embouchure changes.
If we use a mirror, even after doing a little bit of it, begin to see the change in the mirror.
Then they go back to their regular Rouchut or so, and then the old embouchure burns it right back again.
But what we do is let them see the embouchure, when they decide it's right,
and let them really study the appearance,
and even have them draw a picture of it, if they have any ability in drawing.
But I do it always, where it's resultant to the music they play,
and with full permission on my part, to change the embouchure all they want.
But I don't guide the changes, I guide the music. It works out beautifully, try it.

Mr. Jacobs hardly ever worked with embouchure placement or analyzing the embouchure. He really did not want students to think of the embouchure. There are stories about him chasing students around the studio while playing to keep them from thinking about the embouchure - I even have a video of that! I saw him work with hundreds of students and never heard him told any of them to tighten corners.

[brendanige]

I love that anecdote and love the point. I also see your point that you never read it or saw him speak of this. Other people have though! It doesn't take away from the fact that 99.9999 he was trying to inspire through music! Maybe it's a facet of his teaching that only came out in private lessons! I know I teach very differently in the the public eye vs. in private. I wish I had gotten to meet him at least once. I love hearing of what others glean. I appreciate your expertise. My claim is not that embouchure was even one percent of what he did. it is something he thought about, had opinions on, and occasionally, or maybe rarely addressed (because 99 percent of the time the song or the air is a more efficient way) I do not intend to change my wording because other students of his have had experience of him talking about or mentioning firm corners. I understand that you have not. That's really cool to know! That information does not discredit these other students experiences though. It may be true that every one of his students who claim that he talked of firm corners misunderstood him but I don't think that's true. I still am waiting to hear back from someone looking for a book at home!

I cannot wait to see your video series! It's great to talk to someone who worked with him so closely for so long!

One thing I like about Mr. Jacobs teaching is hearing how so many remember their lessons and what he focused on. It's amazing you have such a large sample size.

[brianf]

It looks like you are doing some research. Many have made a trek to my office researching Mr. Jacobs. I invite you come here - you can even ask Mr. Jacobs' true assistant, The Thin Man. He knows everything!

[brendanige]

Whoa! That sounds amazing! I'll definitely do so. What is the best way to contact you to set that up?

[brianf]

email me - brianf@windsongpress.com" target="_blank

[brendanige]

I was finally able to reference my book, Also Sprach Arnold Jacobs.

On page 34, it says "Look in the mirror and make an open aperture and tight corners pinched together vertically."
I'm glad I wasn't going insane. I read this book many, many times. It is only one very small part but I think it shows that he did talk about and understand a lot about embouchure and use that information when it was efficient. There is also mention of tight corners allowing for efficiency in pitch change. I used, and prefer the word firm... but I think they may be synonymous.

Can't wait to possibly come down and see the trove of information!

[brianf]

Interesting! The only place anywhere that mentions that.

Come down and take a look at the stuff - Mr Thin Man is waiting to see you!

[timothy42b]

Paralysis by analysis. Just play the horn.

Does not exist. It's a myth.

The closest thing is the athlete's choke, which has been well researched. It is excess self consciousness, not analysis.

[brendanige]

Crazy thing is, I'm in agreement with what everyone posted! Thanks for the discourse. I hope all of you have actually read the article and tried to see what I am trying to say!