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Once upon a time I was a music major. I studied under Bob LeBlanc at Ohio State in the early 80s. I bought a Cerveny CC Piggy from Jim Akins and that's been the only horn I've owned since. I used to play in the community band, and a quintet now and then, but I've hardly played at all for almost 10 years now - with the exception of the annual Alumni marching band at OSU.

I've recently started a trad jazz band and I'm practicing again. I'm finally getting tone and accuracy back, working through my old etude books and solos. But when I'm practicing improv and comping, it's so much easier when I transpose and play as if I'm on a BBb horn.

I'm thinking about getting a BBb, but I hate the thought of selling the Piggy. What would you advise me to do?

It's really just a matter of preference. Aesthetically, and depending on whether or not sound reinforcement or mobility is required, a sousaphone or bell front tuba might be nice to have. If I were consistently playing in a traditional jazz band, I would prefer a BBb or Eb instrument.

Use whatever instrument is easiest and most comfortable for you, and don't clutter your brain with instruments in other keys.

So, you are thinking in BBb but transposing it to CC when you are using your "jazz brain"? If you do a lot of comping from lead sheats or chord things, that might be easier to get a BBb for that.

I learned all of my improv type of music on CC. So, for me, playing that stuff on BBb would be a chore and I don’t see any advantage in doing so.

But, it’s a lot easier to find bell front tubas and sousaphones in BBb than in CC. Not that they can’t be had. I played a CC King bell front tuba back when I was in the Guy Lombardo band. Now, I play a CC sousaphone for all of my trad. jazz playing. And, I use an old 186 CC for most other stuff, including German polka band playing. So, if you’re comfortable playing on your Piggy, just keep doing it. Plus, the Piggy is light weight, yet very versatile.

A couple of thoughts from recent experience in this matter:

1. I respectfully disagree with sticking with one key, just because you’re comfortable. If you’ve already learned CC by switching from BBb, your brain is already wired with the framework needed to easily switch back (or switch back and forth). It took me a month to switch back; about 2 weeks to get good at reading again, and another 2 weeks to relearn the tunes and licks I had memorized. Then, a year later I learned Eb in about 2 weeks. The more you mess with other keys, the easier is becomes as your brain and fingers and ears works more efficiently together.

2. That being said, the cultural context in which you play/earn money playing is what should influence the key of your gear. If you want to/make money strolling around playing trad jazz/fun music, get a nice sousaphone and get really good at BBb. If you’re occupying most of your musical time playing in orchestras/chamber music/quintet/elite wind ensembles, by all means keep going with the CC/F paradigm.

3. That being said, if you stick with CC, go to the sponsor section of the forum and check out the CC helicon that Wessex has been developing for the last 3 years and ask them if it will be ready for the Army Conference this year!

4. Keep in mind, trad/fun music is typically always in flat keys and just sits under the fingers better. Also consider keeping CC and adding Eb and getting an Eb sousaphone. Eb sousas are cheap (I’m selling a nice 4 valve), you can get a nice Eb as a bass tuba for your pro/symphonic rep. You can also start off learning Eb by reading trumpet music and using your CC fingerings.

If you’re bored, check out my post history and see my musings on this subject when I was in your shoes. And good luck!

Ryan

I merely pointed out what worked for me. By all means, if you’re comfortable playing a horn in one key, stick with it, if you want to and if you are able to find the horns you want to play in that key. I lucked out finding a bell front CC to use in the GL band. And, I had Lee make me the CC sousaphone. I'm more comfortable with CC fingerings. For me, I see no reason to ever play BBb again, although I played on one and made decent $$$$ in a Civil War Brass Band back in NY for over 30 years, but that tuba belonged to the Old Bethpage Restoration Village. I haven’t owned a BBb in 40 years. I still have an F. I’ve owned 2 and I’ve owned 2 Eb’s. I'll play the F once in a while, but I couldn’t improvise on it without work.

Of course there is the issue of one being able to find bell front tubas and sousaphones in CC. So, if those are the kinds of horns you want, using a BBb might be necessary. And, I’m sure one can learn to improvise on a BBb after playing CC for most of one’s playing life. Guys here, like Joe and others, do it well. I didn’t see the need to. I’m more comfortable doing it all on CC.

The guitar comparison is not entirely applicable, as for the most part once you are past a beginning stage, you are just using movable forms, and no open strings. You don't even need a capo, you just moved the form for the Scale, Arpeggio, chord up or down a few steps or more, at will, through 12+ positions. It's also something very visual, and you can look down and SEE the patterns, right by your fingers. Not quite the same as a piano, but close.

I don't get anywhere near that type of relationship when playing a brass instrument.

Well, I do know that on the fly transposition used to be pretty much mandatory for higher level players, especially if their teacher was someone who played a lot of operas. If a soprano wanted a particular piece transposed down a step or so, it would be. I've however never really been able to get my head around it aside from of octave transpositions.

Thanks for the input. I don't have a problem going back and forth from CC to BBb, it's just that the Bb fingerings lay better for me in the flat keys we'll be playing. As far as comping goes, my "jazz brain" was developed on bass (upright and electric) and I find myself "transposing" from the fingerboard to the valves.

I've got a guy wanting me to make an offer on a 1930s Conn 20j. BBb, 3 valves. I've played it before and it's a nice horn. I just need to figure out a fair offer (and how to get the $$ together to buy it.)

=lee=

Good point.

I've heard that about the 20j's. I don't remember it being an issue when I played it a few years ago, but I would have to check it out before buying.

bloke wrote:

leecowherd wrote:Thanks for the input. I don't have a problem going back and forth from CC to BBb, it's just that the Bb fingerings lay better for me in the flat keys we'll be playing. As far as comping goes, my "jazz brain" was developed on bass (upright and electric) and I find myself "transposing" from the fingerboard to the valves.

I've got a guy wanting me to make an offer on a 1930s Conn 20j. BBb, 3 valves. I've played it before and it's a nice horn. I just need to figure out a fair offer (and how to get the $$ together to buy it.)

=lee=

to post this or not to post this...??
EEK! Here I go...(This will piss off some people... )

You will be playing quite a few F naturals (just below the staff).
In reference to the particular model you're considering purchasing, I believe I'd stick with the C instrument.
I'd prefer to play endless thousands of F's with 1st valve, rather than with 1st-and-3rd valves.

Yes, the F is a "little" low on 2XJs. I have owned several and played/performed on them quite a bit. However, after practicing a few days, and as you get comfortable with playing a 2XJ tuba, the F can be played in "tune" with little or no change in the color of the timbre/sound. Especially at medium and higher dynamic levels. I rarely use 1 and 3, maybe playing at really soft dynamic levels or playing with trumpet, trombone, or "CC" tuba players who haven't figured out how to play those partials in tune on their instruments.

Conn 3XJ tubas are a different animal. The F on those tubas is so low, you really have to use 1 and 3.

This is just based on my experience with the 2XJ and 3XJ tubas that I have owned. Everyone is different. Tubas of the same model can be very different. Some people don't want to or don't advocate "lipping" a pitch to alter intonation. It is more work for the player/performer. I totally understand. From my experience, 6/4 tubas of any make or model require "lipping" and or slide manipulation to play in tune. Conn 2XJ tubas definitely require some work.

Dan Tuba wrote:Tubas of the same model can be very different.

Yes. I've heard that flat F myself, though on someone else's 20K - but there are very knowledgeable observers who've claimed here that 20J-series tubas don't all have it. Something to check, but I think I'll put my virtual 25¢ on "F reasonably in tune." For a 6/4 tuba. Good choice for traditional jazz.

Also far less common. Weird how often things work that way, it's almost like the principle of natural selection has been turned on its head by the human race.

But at this remove we're talking only about conventional wisdom, and there's no question, in that picture, the Conn 20J has a flat F, and the big Martins are without flaw. I'm just saying, there's a possibility that conventional wisdom isn't 100% accurate. I hope the OP will get back to us on how this particular tuba checks out.

My whole point is that people's first hand experience varies, and I encountered this contrary opinion from someone with a lot of it. On this forum, "conventional wisdom" often amounts to parroting bloke, so it adds up the same either way. When there's a specific instrument at hand, it's all immaterial.

Lee Stofer's comment to me a while back was that Conn 2XJ tubas that have no dents or abnormalities in the leadpipe or valve tubing and that has properly regulated valves would play as well in tune as most tubas. The 25J that I bought from him pretty much demonstrated that. (I believe, though, that he had replaced the leadpipe with one he made.) As I picked up a few dings in the valve knuckles and leadpipe, the intonation definitely changed.

Oval ports would seem to magnify the effect of alignment errors, wonder if that's another common defect in the Conn 20J and 20K series? I'm not the only one who's heard a 20K come out flat at F, despite completely different large bows, bell, etc.

Donn wrote:Oval ports would seem to magnify the effect of alignment errors, wonder if that's another common defect in the Conn 20J and 20K series? I'm not the only one who's heard a 20K come out flat at F, despite completely different large bows, bell, etc.

Yes, I have experienced this with some 20Ks. However, there may be someone here on this forum who has a different experience

bloke wrote:yeah...As predicted, my comments pissed off some folks.

I would have fared better trolling in "General Chatter" with a "Chevy vs. Ford" thread.

I don't think anyone here is "pissed off"...lol. Some people have shared their experiences and opinions. Some of the opinions and experiences differ from yours...that's all

bloke wrote:yup...many 20K sousaphones feature this intonation quirk as well...but I gather 'em up, 'cause band directors have convinced themselves they are the cat's pj's.

I prefer Conn 20K sousaphones over most of the other sousaphones currently offered on the market.