Kanstul instruments now that Kanstul has closed its doors.

[JStubaJMU]

As someone that owns a Kanstul 5490, I wonder what will happen to the price of Kanstul instruments. And if there is a decent supply of replacements parts. Figured I'd bring it up to the hive mind of tubenet to see if anyone else has any thoughts.

[SousaWarrior9]

B.A.C. Musical instruments in Kansas City purchased the remaining parts and tooling for Kanstul. As far as I know they are still in the process of organizing and categorizing all of it, but will likely be in a position to sell off parts once they're all settled in with it. It seems likely to me that at some point in the future they may also start producing some instuments as well using the parts and tooling, but time will tell.

I'm sure Kevin would be happy to answer any specifics if you contact him, as he certainly has more info than me, and he's fairly active here.

[tbonesullivan]

I have two Kanstul Trombones, so this is definitely relevant to my interests. Thankfully most of the parts, except for the CR valves, are relatively similar to other manufacturers. Still, I hope I don't end up needing any replacement parts anytime soon. It's still a shame what happened with them. Don't really have much choice when the building gets sold out from under you.

[bone-a-phone]

I've got a Kanstul bass bone too, and I'm not a fan of BAC. Hopefully I won't need anything. It was a shame to see Kanstul go down like that. I really liked the company and products.

[SousaWarrior9]

I've got a Kanstul bass bone too, and I'm not a fan of BAC. Hopefully I won't need anything. It was a shame to see Kanstul go down like that. I really liked the company and products.

Just curious, what about them makes you not a fan? I've gotren a chance to visit their factory on a few occasions and I thought they were doing some really fine work there. Not trying to start an argument or anything, I'm just interested is seeing others' perspective.

It is a shame what happened to Kanstul and they will be missed, but hopefully BAC can carry the torch, so to speak.

[bone-a-phone]

Just curious, what about them makes you not a fan? I've gotren a chance to visit their factory on a few occasions and I thought they were doing some really fine work there. Not trying to start an argument or anything, I'm just interested is seeing others' perspective.

I've heard several stories of bad service, and even bad work, along with stuff that you have to admit is often massively overpriced. BAC seems to give the general impression of being overly interested in cosmetic changes, and claims that just don't feel believable. I don't take anything away from people who like the work BAC has done or products they've owned. It just strikes me as equal parts theater and actual skill or knowledge. It's just a personal impression.

Kanstul seemed like exactly the opposite. Everything was kind of understated with them, and their instruments were kind of an open secret that weren't well known. They recreated some vintage greats with real improvements, like the 62h copy 1662, which I own. Some other TIS horns that Conn never created but Kanstul did. The concept of light instruments. These were ideas Kanstul used that I bought into. That's why to me, it's especially grating that Kanstul's legacy is going to be controlled by BAC. M&W would have raised the Kanstul image, I think BAC doesn't.

I won't argue with anyone who likes BAC. That's up to them. Just compare BAC against other second generation custom/modular builders like M&W and judge for your self which looks like a used car sales man and which looks like a Porsche dealer. I should mention most of these prejudices have been developed from the trombone forum side of things, where pro and con factions definitely exist.You can read about more direct experience over there.

[tbonesullivan]

BAC = Best American Craftsman, even when it was just a one man shop with Mike Corrigan. I remember when they were doing some type of fundraiser to buy a machine so they could make very thick bells or something like that, thicker than anyone had. Just always seemed off, and there are more than a few people who have had VERY bad experiences.

I also am into Electric guitars, and the experiences sound EXACTLY like the same crap that custom builders with huge egos pull. Ones that basically think they are so great that anyone should be honored to work with them, regardless of how piss poor their business operations are.

Now, it is my understanding that BAC has a lot of people with money behind it, which explains why it was able to buy up all that machinery, tooling, parts, etc. I do not know however what exact type of relationship it is. I just know that I have a Kanstul 1570CR and a 1588CR trombone, and they will be pried from my cold dead hands. Great horns, great feel, with great valves.

If anything, I hope that someone licenses/picks up the patent for the CR valve, and starts to make them again. They are something special.

[sugawi]

Few months ago I needed some Kanstul parts and my repair shop had no issues ordering those from BAC.

[sugawi]

Well, I needed some parts from several distributors of Chinese products and non of them provided anything I asked for and some didn’t reply. Kanstul parts in my experience are easily available and my repairman assured me he can get anything I need from BAC and I had no issues so far. I would prefer made in USA Kanstul over any made in China tuba, especially if I’m planning on keeping it for any extended period of time.

[MaryAnn]

I don't know what happened to Kanstul and maybe someone will tell me. My only contact with them was at IHS whatever year it was in Tucson (2010?) and I took home a euphonium to try. That thing was so incredibly out of tune with itself that it was like trying to play a bad Alexander (French) horn; I couldn't get the bugle notes in tune no matter what I did. I never understood why they had such a great rep, and I ended up buying a used Sterling Perantucci 3+1 euph on ebay, that plays very well in tune with itself. So why was Kanstul considered such great stuff?

[tbonesullivan]

I never got to try out their euphoniums or tubas, but their trombones were definitely very nice. They also were for a time making a lot of somewhat customized models for Ferguson Music / Hornguys, including a LOT of slide tuning trombones. No one else was really making them at that time, but they started looking for ways to recapture some of the old bass trombone magic from the old days. They also had a George Roberts model trombone, and also a lot of good trombone leadpipes. The trumpets were also very nice, and I think they worked with TAMA drums to supply marching brass.

I've heard several stories as to "what happened" with Kanstul. They had just announced two new lines of trumpets, but shortly after Winter NAMM they announced that there were big changes coming. That turned out to be ceasing production, and liquidation, with BAC buying a lot of the tooling, parts, etc from the factory. I believe they also got a lot of the machinery and such. I think some of their staff may have moved to BAC as well.

Zig Kanstul, the founder, had passed away a few years before the closing, and I think it also eventually is what led it to occur. I don't know what type of plan was in place, but it was my understanding that the building that housed the factory was sold out from under Kanstul Musical Instruments. I don't know whether they had always rented/leased space, and that ended, or whether it was an inheritance thing.

[bone-a-phone]

So why was Kanstul considered such great stuff?

Zig Kanstul has been around the music industry for a long time, and worked with a lot of the greats. Read his bio on the Kanstul site.

They did a lot of custom work and repair along with contract stuff for other brands. Zig also started doing modern reproductions of classic horns. I didn't like all their trombones, but the Conn 62h inspired bass I bought for the price of a Conn was great.

People made a big deal about the fact that they were the last American tuba maker.

They are getting a bit of a sympathy boost right now, but the did produce some important designs on the trombone side of things.

After Zig died, his sons tried, but just couldn't keep it going. There's more to it, but I don't want to spread rumors.

[sugawi]

I have attended NAMM show several times and Kanstul booth I enjoyed the most. I’m a fan of all kind of brass instruments and they always had cool things to show and play on. They always had instruments they working on, concepts trying to implement and see what will work. Many musicians were helping in the development. Just watch this one video and try to understand what great loss tuba and brass community had last year.
https://youtu.be/7ft5x_p7_uw

[WC8KCY]

I once owned at Kanstul-built Besson BE-709 trumpet and it was excellent. The build quality was superb.

If I were in the market for any brass instrument and an affordable Kanstul example was available, I'd certainly consider it.

[toobagrowl]

I never got to try any Kanstul instrument, and it is sad that they are out of biz
Kanstul seemed to be the last premium brass maker in the US; all we have now is Conn-Selmer brass

Reading comments here as well as talking to a few brass players in person shows that they did well with their trumpets and trombones. A few Kanstul tubas have floated around for sale here, but there don't seem to be many of them, and the few reviews of them seem to be a mixed bag.

Kanstul seemed to have a sliver of the DCI/school band market. But the vast majority of that market is dominated by Yamaha, King, and Jupiter.

I found it weird how Kanstul never embraced making sousaphones. I think they "missed the ball" on that one. If they had made sousaphones at the same price point as a modern Conn/King or Yamaha, but made it as well as a Yamaha (better than the current Conn-Selmer Conns/Kings) then they could have had something good going.

I'm sure there are multiple reasons for the closing of Kanstul -- still sad to see. Time will tell how BAC handles the Kanstul parts/tooling/machinery, and if BAC even tries to fabricate any tubas/sousas at all. We will see

[bort]

My impression from talking to some big name repair-people is that Kanstul has good ideas with their tubas, but never built enough of them to iron things out and get it right.

They weren't clunkers... But they were spotty. The math is simple though, compare the Grand (5/4 CC) to the PT6. Obviously they are meant to be similar in size and usage. But how many PT6's have been made, and over what time period? Many generations of refinements, not to mention the common valve block that is mass produced and has long since been finalized.

Kanstul made very few of those tubas, and just had fewer opportunities to sort things out. I considered buying one a long time ago... But the intonation was poor, and it required slide pulling for virtually every note. Sound was great, ergonomics so-so.

I agree that it's a shame they folded. They made a lot of stuff, and a lot of nice stuff. I'd love a chance to own a great-playing modern American made tuba.

[Tubacube]

Some little known trivia:
The last two years production of the 5/4 Grand tubas were standouts because of an “ accidental “ relocation of an inside brace. The unlaquered prototype was displayed next to a finished production model at the NAMM show either 2017 or 2018. A/B comparisons preferred the unlaquered prototype!
Thusly the change was implemented from that year on. (My understanding on both BBb and CC)
Did you know that the 9004B 5/4 tuba had a tune any note feature in the back? Also that the BBb version of the Flying Tuba also had a tune any note feature in the back! Also the screw bell could be had in different alloys! For some reason it was never advertised. Also did you know that all the Euphoniums had 12” bells standard except for the 3/4 baritone? And the 3 valve euphonium had a third valve throw standard. Non catalog listed trombones were the 1606 -ST (Slide tuning and conical bell) And the 1688 large bore slide tuning conical bell with CR valve. Also available as the 1608 without F attachment. My best guess is that fewer than five of each model were made, each with different alloys such as copper,York alloy, red or gold brass.

[basslizard]

They did a lot of custom work and repair along with contract stuff for other brands. Zig also started doing modern reproductions of classic horns. I didn't like all their trombones, but the Conn 62h inspired bass I bought for the price of a Conn was great.
.

Out of curiosity, does their version of the 62H have the same non-standard trigger? E instead of the standard D is odd, and it's thrown me for a loop in playing mine. I've adjusted, but my son is still struggling with it. He's been playing it in our brass band while I play tuba. I'd love to play the two side by side. I love the tuning in the slide, and don't mind the dependent trigger for the E. It really does have a rich, gorgeous tone. It matches the vintage Conn trumpet I have, roughly the same year of production, both with the rose brass bells. Both date to about 1968, if I'm matching the serial numbers correctly.

[bone-a-phone]

Out of curiosity, does their version of the 62H have the same non-standard trigger?

No. Kanstul had 2 versions, one dependent and one independent, both Bb/F/D with split triggers (thumb and middle finger).

[tbonesullivan]

Out of curiosity, does their version of the 62H have the same non-standard trigger? E instead of the standard D is odd, and it's thrown me for a loop in playing mine. I've adjusted, but my son is still struggling with it. He's been playing it in our brass band while I play tuba. I'd love to play the two side by side. I love the tuning in the slide, and don't mind the dependent trigger for the E. It really does have a rich, gorgeous tone. It matches the vintage Conn trumpet I have, roughly the same year of production, both with the rose brass bells. Both date to about 1968, if I'm matching the serial numbers correctly.

Pretty much everyone moved on from the various double triggers to the split triggers, and it's a great thing that they did. Even with the "magic bar" and other ideas, it still is just so clunky when moving from the F to D.

Now, to get into Bass Trombone history, they originally came up with the idea for a dependent trigger to avoid the "E-Pull", which was a standard key that most bass trombonists were already used to. You would either have the trombone in Bb-F or Bb-E, so they kept it simple to avoid confusion. Then of course someone said "wait a minute, why stop at E? That was a bad idea, so lets do Eb." And then D followed. I usually suggest, if possible, that people who have a Bb-F-E, if possible, get a new crook made. Unfortunately it's not really easy, as you've gotta make it with bends so it won't run into the F-tubing.

I play a Yamaha YBL-621 RII, and I believe that the original 611 and 612 basses were based somewhat on the Conn 62 H bell tuning horn. It has a rather "interesting" wrap, and originally was only available in Bb/F/Eb. Then I think a D crook was available as a special option. Mine however came with an Eb and a D crook for the dependent valve. It is the last version, which has split triggers, which really just make it easier to use. Having to move the thumb back and forth, or somehow use the tip of the thumb separately is carpal tunnel waiting to happen.

Kanstul makes nice trombones. I have two of them, and they definitely worked all the bugs out of their 1570C and 1588CR horns. Now if only their leadpipes had been more consistent in length. The two horns come with the same three leadpipes, and none of the three match between the two horns.