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How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:53 am
by pittbassdaddy
The following from the tuba tips/tricks thread caught my attention:
toobagrowl wrote:Don't expect most amateur/community groups to improve intonation/sound/dynamic issues, because they just don't have the trained/refined ears for it. Some/many community players have been at it for decades, and still have wonky pitch, among other 'issues' they just don't hear.
What are some good methods for training/refining our ears?
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:36 am
by timayer
So the general answer is ListenListenListen, use a tuner, etc...
HOWEVER that doesn't help one of the fundamental problems - We all have a tendency to fall victim to a bias in our own playing - We know what we are intending to put into the horn, so we hear that coming out of the horn, even if it's not actually coming out of the horn. (I have noticed this with myself not only in playing the tuba, but I also had a pretty significant speech impediment when I was young and literally had no idea because I knew what I was saying, so it was completely clear to me. Once it was pointed out to me enough times that I heard it myself, I worked to speak more clearly.).
The best thing to do to combat this is record yourself. When you are listening to a recording of yourself, you don't listen with that same bias. And once you hear yourself from that side of the bell, you hear yourself more honestly under the bell. With a group, this is a lot harder for all of those steps- making a recording, listening to it, and fixing the issues you hear. But it's easier to isolate, for example, the low brass for a recording session. Play through pieces together, listen to it, and then start working. It takes a while and needs to constantly be reinforced. But it's the most effective way to tackle the issue.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am
by windshieldbug
Play with BETTER musicians to make you improve because you WANT TO/HAVE TO.
Play with good trombone players because they've had to learn good intonation just to survive with a slide.
Learn the pitch tendencies of your own horn and how to make it more flexible.
Rather than LOOKING at a tuner learn to listen to the beats in a chord and to simplify them.
Take lessons from someone who understands tuning and doesn't concentrate simply on acrobatics.
Pitch has nothing to do with a tuner and everything to do with your ears.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:13 am
by Voisi1ev
bloke wrote: though electronically-generated pitches are more convenient, they're not very pretty, whereas tuning forks do product nicer sounds.
There are lots of options these days that sound better than older drones. Tonal Energy App is amazing and can make some decent sounds. The graph/readout you get from the "analyze" mode is great.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:05 pm
by Patrase
Practicing with a drone fundamentally changed the way I play. I was playing with a national championship winning brass band when I started to use a drone. All of a sudden I could tell if a pitch was sharp or flat, rather than just out of tune. I could easily lock myself into the first player. I just used insTuner and had headphones on one ear. In terms of effort for results it was very rewarding. I personally think most conductors of amateur music groups fail to address pitch, they personally understand it but don’t know how/fail to teach it. I think for most people a $5 tuning drone would help all those amateur players.
In terms of ensemble playing I started to listen more to the other players and really time my common notes with theirs. Sounds easy but most amateurs don’t do it.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:17 pm
by gary
Richard Bobo on youtube has low drones.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:35 pm
by toobagrowl
I just know that after my college years in music, I did a breif stint in a per-service regional orchestra that was good. After that, I swallowed my pride and tried a local community band for a couple years. It was OK, but after a while I wasn't happy because many ppl in there were still basically at a high-school level with the intonation to match
Some players still didn't get their parts down solid by the dress rehearsal. Same thing in a community orchestra I tried later. It was very frustrating sitting there for 40 minutes while the conductor was working with the woodwinds, horns or strings, yet also ignoring glaring bad intonation or out right missed notes
So it wasn't just the players; the conductor could have been better, too. Actually, the conductor/music director has A LOT to do with how well an ensemble sounds.
I'm happier doing 'freelance' gigs these days.
My ears have refined (and continue to refine) just by closely listening over the years. I mean, closely listen to EVERYTHING -- pitch, sound color, blending, tapering of beginning and ending of notes, etc. I am pretty much obsessed with sound and how it works. I listen to music all the time, live and recorded. And I also listen to "chiptunes" every once in a while. Those who are of my generation know what those are.
As for intonation, I listen closely for pitch/'beats' and ensemble blending. But I do pull out the tuner every once in a while to check my
tendencies; especially on a different tuba I haven't played in a while.
I need to dabble with my synthesizers more -- they are fun for creating unique/weird sounds and are also good tools for refining pitch. You can actually hear the difference between one or two cents if you have a digital DX-type synth using FM/additive synthesis, and 'mess with it' long enough
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:48 pm
by MaryAnn
I still am in wonder that people don't talk about beats, which is how we play in tune. It would be just so easy to take those out-of-tune amateurs and get them to listen to beats and whammo you'd have screamingly better intonation. No one told them, ever, is all. I have sat next to retired band teachers who don't play in tune because it was never taught to them EITHER. It goes on and on. Some get it right off, without being told, that oh that sounds awful but if I adjust it this way it sounds much better. It's beats!
I had something similar with a 60 year old horn player whom I was trying to get to play with a metronome. He was right after the beat, consistently. I kept telling him he was late and he kept saying no he wasn't, until I clapped with the metronome myself and he said "OH! you're not supposed to be able to hear the metronome!" I mean, some people, or maybe most people in the intonation thing, have to be told because they're not going to get it otherwise; they think you have to pull the pitch out of the air somehow and not compare to something else by listening to beats.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:17 pm
by anotherjtm2
... If you "feed" the right pitch through the horn, you shouldn't need to do alot of slide pulling. ... If you feed the right pitch through the horn IT (the horn) will EVENTUALLY change for the better in that direction. Even though the're made of metal, their molecular structure can be influenced over time by proper pitch placement - I have horns that people claimed WERE out of tune that they can"t believe are the same horns when they play them 2-10 years later. If you just "let" any horn plays where IT wants to, you can overcompensate with slide pulling and KEEP them out-of-tune or even MAKE THEM WORSE over time. This is certainly a controversial aspect of molecular physics, and DEFIES the way many (some very fine)players approach tuba playing. Reynold Schilke did a series of experiments back in the 60s and 70s where high decibel levels of various pitches were projected electronically through trumpet bells and his conclusions bear out these theories in regard to "breaking in" horns. There is a whole school of thought that asserts that the famous "Stradivarius" are great because they started out as good violins, but were always (for the most part) in the hands of GREAT players who placed the pitches on them properly and over time, they just got better and better. ... Another factor can be mouthpieces. American tubas and American-inspired copies generally play in tune with deep cup or Helleberg-style mouthpieces, while European horns usually respond better when played with the shallower and sometimes smaller mouthpieces that they were most likely designed with.... Mouthpieces are today for the most part much larger than was originally intended for use with like instruments. That is not to say that it is impossible to play in tune with the larger mouthpieces, but in the past these similar instruments might not have been so tempermental....
This was in an older thread about playing in tune. Hmmm
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:47 am
by Mikelynch
The best tool I am aware of (by far) for working on pitch is the Dr. Drone app, developed by or with Jason Sulliman. I know it is available for iPhone--not sure about Android. It allows selection of drones/chords; and includes options for overtone-rich pitches. For those not inclined to bother with instructions (like me), I suggest giving in and watching the youtube videos on use of the app. You can generate patterns to change pitch after a number of beats--I have one to play with a chromatic series of flow exercises. It also includes a metronome, where you can have beats play only intermittently. The app is feature-rich.
https://www.jasonsulliman.com/21st-century-pedagogy" target="_blank
He also has other practice aids/ideas. Though for right now, I am not going with the practice while standing on a Bosu...
Mike
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:11 am
by basslizard
Now I'm a little scared to practice with the drones. Standing too close to my husband while singing in church already has me reaching for ear plugs. (but I'd never suggest he not sing since he's at least enthusiastic) I am used to matching pitch with whoever I'm playing with, but I learned that because I was an oboe player first. I would tune to the drone/pitch, then everyone would tune to me.
I like this thread - thank you for some new tools to work with.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:27 am
by MaryAnn
"every bit of my ear training has been done using the piano... the differences between equal and just tuning drive me nuts. i do better in an ensemble where i can actually hear where i need to place the note."
That's what people don't know how to do; determine where to place the note depending on what is going on around them. So they put a tuner on the stand. If I could post audio files here, I'd make up some binaurl beat files just to drive the point home. So many times in an amateur band I've seen the conductor take the trumpet section, which was beating against itself enough to rattle the chandeliers, and tell each one where to move his pitch to, to get rid of the beats. And they all just sat there on their pitches until he told them what to do, but he never explained to them what he was doing or why they should listen and fix it the same way themselves. Drove me nuts. And the conductor himself was a very fine musician. This seems to be across the board in amateur groups; they seem to think that the group members are not *capable* of learning how to listen to beats. I just don't get it.
Re: How can we train/refine ears
Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:31 am
by basslizard
I guess this means I need some blue tooth speakers that aren't Amazon Echos. I was planning on going old-school and just getting a tuner that had a speaker built in. I've clamped a guitar tuner to my bell before. As you might guess, it doesn't work very well, for obvious reasons that didn't occur to me until I actually tried it. Felt a little stupid as soon as I discovered the flaw in my plan.
I taught my kids to have one person tune their horn, and then everyone else in a small group tunes to that person. It's how I was taught in school. Even if that first person is off - if everyone else if off in the same way, what does it matter? Especially important if supporting a soloist... Doesn't matter if they're oddly tuned to A-445 concert pitch.
My lead trombone player wants to play a particular arrangement of Variations of a Shaker Melody, and the first tuba part really needs me to play my Eb tuba. So he's having to match my off-key horn. Luckily his ear and ability to adjust is fantastic.
On a side note, all this love of the ancient Eb tuba and it's near-impossibility to tune has me almost ready to find someone to actually rehab it. The tone is amazing, it's lovely and dark and growly and moody in a way my Bb just isn't. I'm absolutely in love with it. So much so that I went to bed an hour late because I was listening to drones and trying to match the pitches (because of this thread!!!) .... Hard to do when all but one tuning slide is stuck.