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To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:45 pm
by Z-Tuba Dude
I am playing these preludes in March, but have not seen the parts in a long time.
I seem to remember Act III could be appropriate for bass tuba.
What is the common wisdom?
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:00 pm
by Z-Tuba Dude
Not sure if the question was clear, the first time out...
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:22 pm
by PeteDenton
Just had a quick squint at Prelude to Act 3 and it confirmed what I already thought - definitely more suited to Bass than Contrabass in my opinion.
Pete
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:15 pm
by tbonesullivan
Lohengrin definitely works better with a Basstuba. Last time I played it our tuba player only had a Yamaha YBB-321 BBb tuba, and man he was having issues with the upper range.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:19 am
by 2ba4t
In Bayreuth 1968-1969 mit Wolgang Wagner we always used the F for Lohengrin, Tannhauser, Meistersingers, Der Hollander etc. Onkel Richard Wagner knew what a BBb sounded like as opposed to an F. I handled the original tiny bell instruments deep in the cellar.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:59 pm
by timayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fGVPLl9V2c" target="_blank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lud8cAmqCqw" target="_blank
This makes a very good case for contrabass for the Prelude to Act I and bass for the Prelude to Act III.
I think bass would also be appropriate for the Prelude the Act I, and I wouldn't schlep a contrabass just for those few notes. If you have it anyway, use it. If not, don't sweat it. At the end of the day, as long as you play all the right notes at the right time and in tune, the audience won't give you a second thought.
Doc wrote:Why is it in America that many players feel the need to be a macho hero and conquer everything with CC? Is that merely the style here? Do we not honor the intentions of the composer? Do we ignore tradition?
The Tuba often acts as a fourth trombone, the bottom of the horn section, or a contrabass of different color. Is a giant CC necessary for all of that all the time? I must not be the only one concerned with this, because the OP felt compelled to ask the question about which one to use. I’ve always believed that the Germans were not wrong in their approach to the German standards.
I mean, really… Meistersinger on 6/4 CC? First of all,what we most often play is the overture. Bass tuba should suffice. Secondly, this is a piece in which (at least in my assessment) you are mostly performing the role of a bass of another color. Bass tuba should suffice. But the way I often hear and see how people approach it is that it is a solo Tuba piece with orchestra accompaniment, and the BIG tuba is a necessity. Playing it musically, especially since it’s on most audition lists, is absolutely necessary. And for auditions, you might have to approach it, as with everything else, as a soloist. But is a big contrabass tuba really necessary for the audience? Or is it more about our ego?
My recommendation to the OP is to play bass tuba. It will sound appropriate, it will sound clean and secure, and the audience won’t know it’s not a big tuba.
To add to my comment in another thread - Meistersinger would be a GREAT application of a 184. I wouldn't wish playing the opening few lines on a German F tuba on my worst enemy. Definitely doable for a practiced player, but man. The 184 is bass tuba sized and will give better access to the necessary low range. And using a 184 would allow you to show off that YOU CAN LIP TRILL, which is really the best reason to use a CC on Meistersinger.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:23 pm
by 2ba4t
In Bayreuth - 1971 - 73 - under Wolfgang Wagner, Lohengrin, Tann., Hollander, Meistersinger were all done on an F. The kaisertuba was brought out for the Ring only. Grossvater Richard knew the very different sounds of an F and a BBb. I actually handled the old, stove pipe bell F and BBb in the Festspielhaus cellar which were then probably 100 years old. He likely heard those. His scoring is very specific. His eras's instruments however projected a focussed sound from their (today mocked) exponential bells. The Ceverny CC built in 1845 actually had a body almost identical to the biggest CCs today. This excludes of course today's vast last bow and bi-radial, humongous 'upright sousa' [a la bloke] bell. These create the organ-like, sumptuous sound we all adore but this is [& scientifically must be - look it up] swallowed in a big tutti including timps, basses and bones. [But that is old news, well chewed-over previously.] So, for authenticity, its F or EEb. For fun - or perhaps because you use it for everything anyway - its the biggest 5/4, 6/4, 7/4, 8/4 machine you can carry.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:49 pm
by Dan Tuba
Just play it down the octave, or up the octave. As long as you play accurately, who's going to notice? They will definitely notice those chips above the staff
Whatever allows the performer to make the most music. As performers, aren't we oftentimes challenged to go beyond the part/score
Just kidding...
Personally, I would use an EEb, or F. "Professionally," I would use whatever made the Boss happy.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:13 am
by timayer
bloke wrote:I’m not speaking directly to Mr. Z at all...but could be speaking to myself or anyone:
If someone [1] only owns some great big tuba, and [1] their upper range is not particularly secure,
I would view it as perfectly fine to tacet the first time through. The trombones and others are making plenty of racket, and the second time through should be louder and more weighty anyway.
I went to a summer music camp between 9th and 10th grade. I was playing a Jupiter BBb at the time. The orchestra conductor put the Hungarian March on the stands. I thought it was a joke. I did just this at the appropriate times.
Re: To Bass or Contrabass?: Lohengrin Preludes I & III
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:43 pm
by happyroman
My initial response was going to be to look at the part and see which tuba was indicated by the composer. Meistersinger, and the Act I and Act III Preludes to Lohengrin all say Basstuba. The problem is that some of the Ring excerpts, like the Ride and Siegfried's Rhine Journey also say Basstuba.
Gene Pokorny says that there is no such thing as cheating in music. So I say, play it on whichever instrument sounds the best.