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A contributor to the ContraBass list posted a link referring to this photo, which would be of interest here too:




That's just about the largest OTS tuba I ever saw documented. Is it in BBb?

You will also be able to find a Stölzel-valve cornet and an Eb alto helicon on the photo(-s).

Klaus

the elephant wrote:I like the hand crank thing that operates the trash can lid on the bell.

I hadn't noticed that one myself. However such a devise was not unknown before 1900. Adolphe Sax had patented similar devices on some of his Saxhorn models. The purpose was to remedy the flatness of the 5th partial series. I have seen that documented. Probably on the web, but I don't remember where.

the elephant wrote:Very odd. I wonder whether it sounded any good or if it was just a neat "billboard" for the group . . .

The bell profile is very similar to what I have called the "Urtext" bells coming especially out of the Cerveny factory before WWI.

If this instrument should be balanced by the player alone, the bell must have been very lightweight.

Klaus

Looking at the change in coloration along the bell, I'm of the opinion that the bell extension probably isn't even brass. Probably built by some local tinsmith of galvanized or tin-plated sheet steel. I also wonder if the contraption had the capability of playing only two notes--one with the vent closed, and the other with it open.

Chuck(G) wrote:Looking at the change in coloration along the bell, I'm of the opinion that the bell extension probably isn't even brass. Probably built by some local tinsmith of galvanized or tin-plated sheet steel. I also wonder if the contraption had the capability of playing only two notes--one with the vent closed, and the other with it open.

If you look at the close-up pic, about 2 feet up from the ground, there appear to be horizontally-mounted valves (looks like maybe three of them) just below the level of the mouthpiece (both on the left side).

The observations by Chuck and Kevin are interesting, and they have made me revise my own point of view.

The mouthpiece placement makes me doubt, that the instrument can be played in the OTS position.

The body tubing appears to fit a smallish bass tuba. The bell addition may have happened like Chuck suggests, but it still shows traits inspired by the German-Czech way of making bells in the old days.

Still it must have been pure Hell to march this construction. Maybe the reason why the player doesn't exactly flash a big smile.

As much as this band displays instruments of diverse traditions, I think it was a "for real" band, which actually could play. The big tuba must have had a musical function of some sort.

Klaus

Kevin Hendrick wrote:If you look at the close-up pic, about 2 feet up from the ground, there appear to be horizontally-mounted valves (looks like maybe three of them) just below the level of the mouthpiece (both on the left side).

I'm sure that those are valves--this looks like nothing more than an old OTS horn with the sheet metal cone grafted on. Given the weight of the thing, the lack of support and the orientation of the writiing, it probably was carried OTS-style by more than one person (the bell would face rearwards for the writing to make any sense). But could the pull-rope thingie and the valves have been operated by the same person? I think one or the other, but not both. Perhaps this was a cooperative venture when it came to playing.

As far as the key, if this was an Eb OTS horn to start with, adding another 5 feet or so of length would give a pitch of BBb. Estimating that the trash-can lid thingie is at about the 3 foot mark would give a C with the rope pull. So you had a horn that could play Bb, C, F and G without valves. Good enough for most marches.

Not to denegrate Klaus' observation about the shape of the bell, allow me to point out that the straight conical shape was simply the easiest to fabricate. The top of the bell probably came from a section of a large funnel or smokestack.

the elephant wrote:I like the hand crank thing that operates the trash can lid on the bell.

Very odd. I wonder whether it sounded any good or if it was just a neat "billboard" for the group . . .

The "trashcan lid" is situated very similarly to the last key of a keyed bugle, which was also open. One could assume, then, that the hand crank was to tune it (as shims were used in the bugle's case, to ensure the proper pitch for the other keys). Tuning it assumes that the horn was correctable in the same way. The extension follows the "stovepipe" bell flair, and those more familiar with the physics could comment on the tonal practicality. This instrument does have the end of a common bell-up leadpipe visible, not an OTS one, so one could assumed that this instrument was only used outdoors, if actually played. Then again, why go to all the trouble of neatly lettering the horn sideways if not carried Over-The-Shoulder?

Personally, I like the alto helicon (tell by the mouthpiece compared to the trombone behind it; the horn looks just like the Eb alto Slater I have) right next to it...

Chuck(G) wrote:

Kevin Hendrick wrote:If you look at the close-up pic, about 2 feet up from the ground, there appear to be horizontally-mounted valves (looks like maybe three of them) just below the level of the mouthpiece (both on the left side).

. . . . Given the weight of the thing, the lack of support and the orientation of the writiing, it probably was carried OTS-style by more than one person (the bell would face rearwards for the writing to make any sense). . . .

For the logo to be readable, the horn would have to be carried on the left shoulder, with the coiled branches parallel to the ground, and the bell directed rearward. That would place the leadpipe near the face, and the valves straight up, above the left shoulder. Maybe a player used his left hand to work the valves?

But I don't really think the instrument would be playable while marching. Perhaps the player lay on a wheeled cart, flat on his back, and was pushed feet first?

windshieldbug wrote:

the elephant wrote:I like the hand crank thing that op This instrument does have the end of a common bell-up leadpipe visible, not an OTS one, so one could assumed that this instrument was only used outdoors, if actually played. Then again, why go to all the trouble of neatly lettering the horn sideways if not carried Over-The-Shoulder?

Take a look at the "lid" and note that in the "bell up" position, it's already half-open, even though the pull-cord obviously serves to pull it open. Thus, the only way it coiuld close is by gravity, which forces it to be played as an OTS instrument.

Chuck(G) wrote:Take a look at the "lid" and note that in the "bell up" position, it's already half-open, even though the pull-cord obviously serves to pull it open. Thus, the only way it coiuld close is by gravity, which forces it to be played as an OTS instrument.

My suggestion was not that it be used as a "key", only that it was there to be used to tune the open instrument. It is true that for keyed bugles and ophicliedes the last key is open, but usually hinged, and open, while the normal position for the other keys is closed.

Looking at the position of the end handle to the corresponding mount, even if this instrument were horizontal the rope/wire looks like it could not go any further closed than it is. If this were a simple pull mechanism for an OTS horn, one would expect to see the "key" at a different angle when the instrument was stood up(if simpe rope) or some distance between the "key" and the support! The tension suggests to me that the hole was put there simply to tune the instrument, not to be used as a "key".

the elephant wrote:I don't think that it is a cord, but a rod that is pushed to close a sprung-open lid/key.

OK, but how would a mount that is just above the handle in this picture work?

Klaus wrote:The big tuba must have had a musical function of some sort.

Only as a sick, twisted punishment for the band member who practiced the least, missed the most rehearsals, or showed up drunk to the most gigs.

Klaus wrote:Maybe the reason why the player doesn't exactly flash a big smile.

Last time I saw Chisham over at Ft. Myer, he was revving up the Brookie for a four-alarm retirement ceremony, and he looked just like that.

windshieldbug wrote:Tuning it assumes that the horn was correctable

That's a bi-i-i-ig assumption. I'd say the only thing that would correct this would be a sledgehammer.

the elephant wrote:I don't think that it is a cord, but a rod that is pushed to close a sprung-open lid/key.

This allows the tuba operator to slam the trash can lid in time to the music. Helpful if the drummer is more hammered than the tuba operator.

bloke wrote:I would like to hea...no...see a trill from the lowest to next-to-lowest pitch.

If the drummer falls asleep during "Sabre Dance" you get the same effect.

Dean E wrote:Perhaps the player lay on a wheeled cart, flat on his back, and was pushed feet first?

He was. At his funeral. Immediately after this gig.

I love this site. You guys rule.

imperialbari wrote:A contributor to the ContraBass list posted a link referring to this photo, which would be of interest here too:




That's just about the largest OTS tuba I ever saw documented. Is it in BBb?

You will also be able to find a Stölzel-valve cornet and an Eb alto helicon on the photo(-s).

Klaus

Did anyone save a copy of that photo with the tarpoo tuba? The original site has evaporated to thin air.

I have entered the photos in my brass galleries at this address:

Thumbnails of an old US clown band in Massachusetts with a huge OTS (over-the-shoulder) tuba:

http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group ... rowse/7045

You will have to enter the gallery group via

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotos62/

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Thank you very much, Klaus. Now that I've looked at the photos again, I'm lusting after the Eb alto helicon in the group photo.

Dean E wrote:Thank you very much, Klaus. Now that I've looked at the photos again, I'm lusting after the Eb alto helicon in the group photo.

Some of you may know, that along with my musical career as a teacher, conductor, and player I also had a "day job" as a school teacher for many years. Hence I am also pretty well versed in the no-no’s within pedagogy.

One of these is never to tease a kid with a not obtainable goodie.

Now that I am retired, I can allow myself to care no s**t about that rule.

Thumbnails of a very unusual Eb alto helicon made by Boston Musical Instruments Manuf’y:

http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group ... rowse/5baa


You will have to join the gallery group in question via

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMasterPublicPhotosIX/

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre