F Tuba fingerings (again)

[jmerring]

I am trying to learn F tuba, now. I have always (and still do) played on a BBb. If this has been discussed before, I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

Are there any basic methods, that show the proper (read: no alternates) fingerings as relate to all the scales (M & m)? I am getting writer's cramp from manually writing out the scales (manuscript 2 octaves, at least) and writing the fingerings underneath for study.

As an aside; HOW THE HECK DO YOU GET THE DARNED THING TO PLAY IN ANY SEMBLANCE OF PROPER INTONATION!!??? My horn is a Mira 180 and is from the mid 70's.

Thank you for any pointers you can provide.

[ThomasP]

F tuba = bad intonation

You just have to lip and use alternate fingerings, I haven't played an f tuba where slides were a viable option (either too short, or out of reach).

As for fingerings, there are some in the tips on playing section from the first page of chisham.com.

[tubiker]

I've got one too

I thought that my Tuba was getting clapped out - lousy intonation and my perception was that the sound was suffering

and then !!!!!!!

I got a proper mouthpiece

I got in touch with Bob Tucci in Munich, told him what sort of hooter I used and what I used it for, he got back and said use - a PT 65 mouthpiece - and Bingo - everything works - the tuning is tons better, my sound has perked up and generally the mouthpiece fits the instrument like a glove.

Hope this helps

Andrew Murray

[imperialbari]

Are there any basic methods, that show the proper (read: no alternates) fingerings as relate to all the scales (M & m)? I am getting writer's cramp from manually writing out the scales (manuscript 2 octaves, at least) and writing the fingerings underneath for study.

.

I don't agree with your "the proper (read: no alternates) fingerings" attitude. If a tuba takes alternative fingerings to be played in tune, then one shall use such fingerings. My main bass tuba is an Eb Besson 981. I like it and it is well in tune only not on the 5th and 10th partials, which tend flat, especially if functioning as leading notes. Whether I play upper space G with 0, 12, or 3 depends on the musical context.

As an aside; HOW THE HECK DO YOU GET THE DARNED THING TO PLAY IN ANY SEMBLANCE OF PROPER INTONATION!!??? My horn is a Mira 180 and is from the mid 70's.

By knowing the specific quirks of ones instrument and then finger it accordingly. It doesn't hurt to have a strong and flexible embouchure supported by a strong and well differentiated air support. A good handling of head and body ressonances will also makes your playing more musically pleasant to listen to.

I cannot provide you with any definite fingerings withour sitting next to you and listen to you (which will not happen for many purely technical reasons)

However I have issued a set of scale routines encompassing major, minor (3 variants), dorian, and mixolydian scales over 4 octaves. There are dedicated pages for the following instruments:

trombone, baritone, euphonium, Eb tuba, and BBb tuba (all playing from the same pages in treble clef brass band style notation)

trombone, bass trombone, baritone, euphonium (all playing from the same pages in bass clef concert)

tubas in F, Eb, CC, and BBb (all playing from each their own pages in bass clef concert)

Each scale type has all pages for all instruments combined into one .pdf file together with a shared preface. So please do make a selective print-out.

As with all of the other music I have issued, this scale system can be had for free via a link below here. To be approved, you have to reply to my Welcome-mail sent to you, when you apply for membership.

Klaus

[jmerring]

Klaus,
My reference to 'proper' fingerings means those fingerings that would be taught to the beginning player. When I first learned any of the diverse instruments that I have had the honor to play, basic fingering was always the first thing taught. Alternate fingerings are usually taught to more advanced students of any wind instrument. I realize that altnernates are needed, but there must be a baseline from which all other tuning adjustment is made.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my question(s) and stand in awe of your encyclopedic and thorough knowledge. I am humbled by and grateful to
you.
Jim

[imperialbari]

My reference to 'proper' fingerings means those fingerings that would be taught to the beginning player. When I first learned any of the diverse instruments that I have had the honor to play, basic fingering was always the first thing taught. Alternate fingerings are usually taught to more advanced students of any wind instrument. I realize that altnernates are needed, but there must be a baseline from which all other tuning adjustment is made.

I understand, what you mean, but aside from some quite basic two-beat honking, this attitude doesn't work on tubas, which don't have easy access to slide pulling or some main tuning slide arrangement of a trigger or a tuning rod.

Lets take a sample for F-tuba. "Trumpet fingering" would have you fingering bottom line G 13 and top space G 1. The octave between these G's is very likely to be too natrrow, as the top note tends flat and the bottom note tends sharp on most tubas. If you finger both of these G's 4, then the octave maybe will come out a bit wide, because the top note may be slightly sharp on some tubas. But this latter fingering in general will produce an intonation, which is far superior to the former. So why not make this your proper/normal/basic/or-whatever fingering?

When I started teaching brass in a not so wealthy Christian youth organisation, some students played pre-WWII rotary instruments. If I hadn't made the needed altarnative fingerings the normal ones, the results had been unbearable for musical ears.

One may say, that all brass instrumentalists should be started on two instruments at the same time: trombone and piano. In the old days students at Kneller Hall, the conservatory of the British army, were obligated to play a string instrument. I personally have known a musician from 2nd battallion Parachuters, who would much rather play his oboe and his tenor saxophone, than he would saw his fiddle. But he couldn't deny learning from playing a string instrument.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my question(s) and stand in awe of your encyclopedic and thorough knowledge. I am humbled by and grateful to
you.
Jim

I have pulled a few comic stunts over the years myself, so I appreciate yours also!

Jokes aside: If I can still be helpful, it doesn't exactly hurt me. It isn't possible to list all reasonable fingerings. But then you know most of them already. The fingerings are just about the same on all non-compensating tubas. It's only the reading and the sounding pitches, which are off-set seconds, thirds, fourths, or fifths.

Klaus

[Charlie Goodman]

When I switched to CC, my teacher and I figured out all of the most in-tune fingerings on the instrument, and I just learned to use those. In my head, an Eb in the staff is 23, even though "technically" it would be 2. It makes it a lot simpler to play in tune to just make those the default fingerings in your brain. However, you'd probably be more flexible if you learned the basic ones first and then built on that.

[imperialbari]

When I switched to CC, my teacher and I figured out all of the most in-tune fingerings on the instrument, and I just learned to use those. In my head, an Eb in the staff is 23, even though "technically" it would be 2. It makes it a lot simpler to play in tune to just make those the default fingerings in your brain. However, you'd probably be more flexible if you learned the basic ones first and then built on that.

Your approach is productive!

However true flexibility demands either a very good ear or a good knowledge of Pythagoras as applied to conical brasses and a good understanding of the math behing the shortcomings of the valve system, when valves are combined. Actually the ideal combination is ear plus math.

I have seen a player having a fingering table taking up half the space on his music stand all the time. After having played the tuba for over 50 years. That's amateurism taken a bit too far. A little understanding doesn't hurt.

Sadly I haven't met that many books or methods. During my college years I played in a non-college band, which out of the blue asked me to transfer from baritone to one of the single valve bassbones most common back then. I had to figure out the valve + slide bass range positions myself.

I wondered why the low C# was exactly in 6th position plus F-valve, which equals adding 2/3 to the length of the open bugle. Consulting with Pythagoras made this obvious. (Unfortunately my math and tech English is too limited. The smart guys will explain the calc if needed).

Klaus

[imperialbari]

My reference to 'proper' fingerings means those fingerings that would be taught to the beginning player. When I first learned any of the diverse instruments that I have had the honor to play, basic fingering was always the first thing taught. Alternate fingerings are usually taught to more advanced students of any wind instrument. I realize that altnernates are needed, but there must be a baseline from which all other tuning adjustment is made.

I understand, what you mean, but aside from some quite basic two-beat honking, this attitude doesn't work on tubas, which don't have easy access to slide pulling or some main tuning slide arrangement of a trigger or a tuning rod.

Lets take a sample for F-tuba. "Trumpet fingering" would have you fingering bottom line G 13 and top space G 1. The octave between these G's is very likely to be too natrrow, as the top note tends flat and the bottom note tends sharp on most tubas. If you finger both of these G's 4, then the octave maybe will come out a bit wide, because the top note may be slightly sharp on some tubas. But this latter fingering in general will produce an intonation, which is far superior to the former. So why not make this your proper/normal/basic/or-whatever fingering?

When I started teaching brass in a not so wealthy Christian youth organisation, some students played pre-WWII rotary instruments. If I hadn't made the needed altarnative fingerings the normal ones, the results had been unbearable for musical ears.

One may say, that all brass instrumentalists should be started on two instruments at the same time: trombone and piano. In the old days students at Kneller Hall, the conservatory of the British army, were obligated to play a string instrument. I personally have known a musician from 2nd battalion Parachuters, who would much rather play his oboe and his tenor saxophone, than he would saw his fiddle. But he couldn't deny learning from playing a string instrument.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my question(s) and stand in awe of your encyclopedic and thorough knowledge. I am humbled by and grateful to
you.
Jim

I have pulled a few comic stunts over the years myself, so I appreciate yours also!

Jokes aside: If I can still be helpful, it doesn't exactly hurt me. It isn't possible to list all reasonable fingerings. But then you know most of them already. The fingerings are just about the same on all non-compensating tubas. It's only the reading and the sounding pitches, which are off-set seconds, thirds, fourths, or fifths.

Klaus

[Gorilla Tuba]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/fingerings/F.html

The top fingerings are the most common.

[Billy M.]

As an aside; HOW THE HECK DO YOU GET THE DARNED THING TO PLAY IN ANY SEMBLANCE OF PROPER INTONATION!!??? My horn is a Mira 180 and is from the mid 70's.

Thank you for any pointers you can provide.

I am using the same model horn. Is yours a 4 valve or 5 valve version?

Unlike most Miraphones, I have found these horns to be more mouthpiece sensitive. What do you currently use on it?

[jmerring]

This is in reply to Billy M (above). Mine is a 5 valve model. I am using the MP that came with it, marked "Miraphone Eb/F." It is identical to a Schilke 66 Helleberg. I have also tried a Schilke 62, Marcienkewitz N4 and a Miraphone Rose Orchestral. You are right about it being mouthpiece sensitive; however, none of the afore mention MP's has been up to the task of keeping successive (scalar) notes in any semblence of tune. In general, I am quite flat throughout the horn's range (a few exceptions exist). My routine is to play long tones, with a tuner, making adjustments/ using alternate fingerings as I go. It's quite difficult for me. I am spoiled by the near flawless intonation of my Miraphone 186 4v BBb.

[jmerring]

I am very grateful to all of you who have been kind enough to offer suggestions regarding F horns. I can see that I have a tough row to hoe, here.

This is a wonderful forum in which to learn much more about the tuba world that I thought existed!

Thanks again, to all!!

[Billy M.]

This is in reply to Billy M (above). Mine is a 5 valve model. I am using the MP that came with it, marked "Miraphone Eb/F." It is identical to a Schilke 66 Helleberg.

Consider looking into a shallow to medium cup and tighter backbore. Hopefully this will raise the pitch to desired intonation.

Hope this helps.

[jmerring]

Thank you, Billy. I have heard that a PT-65 might be helpful. I will check out it's dimensions.