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Not in the market, but...

What's the difference between a "vintage" (let's say as old as possible) Conn Helleberg and a new Conn Helleberg?

Any different measurements? Different metal? Pre-WWII radiation?

A couple gems mined from this forum -

Very detailed historical information from a couple members who are no longer with us - viewtopic.php?t=11122

But trimming it down to the basics:

Alex C wrote:The difference between the Conn 2 and the earlier "original" Helleberg's is the mouthpiece blank and the Conn 2 will not play by itself.

As discussed in another thread, the "original" Helleberg's are documented to be far superior mouthpieces and capable of winning an audition all by itself; the only thing the player needs to do is provide the correct fingerings.

^ Ha!

So you've selected "pre-atomic metal".

That was a nice read. In the 15 or so years since then, has anyone copied one of the "definitive" Helleberg mouthpieces, or maybe even the copy Arnold Jacobs used?

Right now Conn has two Helleberg models, Faxx makes one, and also just about every custom mouthpiece maker who makes a tuba mouthpiece will make some type of "helleberg".

The original Conn Helleberg looks like the one in the Simonetti collection in the link below.

https://simonettitubacollection.com/mou ... outhpiece/" target="_blank"

They look like thin wall mouthpieces compared to modern mouthpieces and are quite light. The 1950s and 60s Conn 2 mouthpieces were cut with the exact tooling used to cut the 1930s Helleberg according to Harvey Phillips. Harvey played a Conn 2 for most of his career. The Conn 2 rim is slightly more rounded but it is a close copy.

The Conn Helleberg mouthpieces made in the 1970s are Helleberg in cup shape but not copies of the "original." They are too big.

Keep in mind, before he was associated with Conn, Helleberg believed that every horn needed a mouthpiece designed for that specific horn. I have three original Hellebergs (not by Conn) and they are all different. Almost all modern day mouthpieces are bigger than anything August Helleberg every played.

I hope that helped.

I have a copy of an 'original' Helleberg with no name on it at all (Euroshank). I have no idea who made it and I can't find a record of who sold it to me. It's not the Faxx one. Anyway, it's relatively small. I think the throat and backbore may be slightly smaller than on the Conn 7B. Since the B&S "Neptune" is such an 'air hog' and inherently has a big low register, I like using this mouthpiece on it. The octaves are better in tune with it, and I can slur much easier with it as well. And since the Neptune isn't the world's best tuba in terms of the upper mid-range notes 'slotting', the flat rim and sharp bite helps to really slot those notes. It's taken me a while to get used to it, as I normally play wider mouthpieces. But this m.p. has lent better tuning and more agility on that big horn, without giving up lots of fundamental. Before this, I didn't realize how 'spread' the sound is on the Neptune. Keep in mind that I use the bigger lead-pipe on the Neptune.

I have a CONN-HELLEBERG that looks exactly like the one in the Simonetti collection except it measures 1.26" inside. The throat is .327 as listed in the Simonetti info. It is also virtually identical to a Conn 2 that I have.

I have always associated that size with the later ones marked 7B. I know I have a 7B but I can't find it right now.

Here it is from the 1913 C. G. Conn catalog (courtesy of saxophone.org). This may very well be "as old as possible," when it comes to a Helleberg mouthpiece:

Doug Elliott wrote:I have a CONN-HELLEBERG that looks exactly like the one in the Simonetti collection except it measures 1.26" inside. The throat is .327 as listed in the Simonetti info. It is also virtually identical to a Conn 2 that I have.

What is the rim like? From the looks of my Conn Giant I'd guess the old rims were just commonly relatively sharper and flatter than today, even if they weren't quite as sharp as the ca. 1971 version Sidey liked.

I think in all the time I've been here, I've never seen any serious comparison of mouthpiece backbores, presumably because it involves an open-ended number of subtle measurements, but ... I wonder about that too.

Dave Detwiler wrote:Here it is from the 1913 C. G. Conn catalog (courtesy of saxophone.org). This may very well be "as old as possible," when it comes to a Helleberg mouthpiece:

1913 Conn catalogue mouthpieces (2).jpg

I have one of these "H" Conn mouthpieces in good condition. It is exactly the same as a Conn 7B.

-Matt

I've had two 1930s (?) Hellebergs come through my possession over the years.

Neither had what I would consider a particularly flat or sharp rim. They weren't C4 bubble rims by any means. The rims and the inner shape were both similar to a Conn 2. Very cool, but awful pricy for a Conn 2.

I remember the Sidey things to be very very flat and very very sharp.

I have a Faxx Helleberg which is 120s sized which is just stamped "fhb". It has a Bach looking exterior. It plays as nice as any Conn Helleberg as I've ever found. SUPER cheap too. I keep it around as the litmus test for testing mouthpieces. If I don't like whatever I might be playing as much as the fhb, it really needs to go.

tbonesullivan wrote:That was a nice read. In the 15 or so years since then, has anyone copied one of the "definitive" Helleberg mouthpieces, or maybe even the copy Arnold Jacobs used?

Right now Conn has two Helleberg models, Faxx makes one, and also just about every custom mouthpiece maker who makes a tuba mouthpiece will make some type of "helleberg".

Warburton makes four mouthpieces that comprise The Grail (as in Holy Grail) Series. The TG1 is their version of the Canadian Brass Arnold Jacobs mouthpiece (it is reportedly identical, as explained below). This mouthpiece, that was used by Jake, is a 1930s vintage Conn Helleberg that was given to Schilke to widen and deepen the cup, while maintaining the overall Helleberg shape. Jake wanted a slightly larger mouthpiece for the big contrabass parts like the Ring excerpts. The TG4 is supposedly a copy of one of Jake's stage mouthpieces (a 1930s Conn Helleberg) that was provided to them by Dave Fedderly. The TG2 and TG3 are apparently similar, but have a cup that is slightly narrower and shallower, and one has a slightly smaller throat diameter. All of this info was relayed to me from Russ Ward, a former Jacobs student and sales rep with Warburton. He told me that Warburton made the original Canadian Brass AJ mouthpieces but had to discontinue manufacturing when their warehouse burned down. Manufacture was then shifted to another company and Warburton later started selling the TG1, but could not use the Arnold Jacobs name.

http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/tuba-mouthpieces" target="_blank

I have the Warburton AJ mouthpiece and a TG4 and like them both. The AJ rim is somewhat narrow, which is to be expected since it is a copy of a mouthpiece that has had material removed from the inside of the cup.

My favorite mouthpiece, however, is the Mike Finn H, which is also based on the 1930s Helleburg, but uses one of Mike's heavy weight blanks. It has an extremely comfortable rim and the heavy weight blank provides much more resonance to the sound than a standard blank

cjk wrote:I have a Faxx Helleberg which is 120s sized which is just stamped "fhb". It has a Bach looking exterior. It plays as nice as any Conn Helleberg as I've ever found.

Mine is currently on top of the "my favorite mouthpiece" rotation. Speaking of rims, I think you might notice that where Conn's 120 rim is flat, Faxx's has a slight dish to it.

For me, I have a Conn-Helleberg 7B (I really don't know what that means, if it's the original version, or a variation) and I find it works really well on my E flat monster tuba(s), especially in the "4th & 5th valve" register.

FWIW, I find all of the Helleberg-variety pieces be too small for contrabass tubas, just my $.02 - YMMV

I’ve owned a handful of “original” Hellebergs off and on over the years (none currently). No two that I’ve had have been exactly the same.

However, just as reported by others, all of the examples that I’ve had have been much more like the modern 7B than today’s Conn Helleberg.

There were multiple sizes of “original” Hellebergs, perhaps accidentally rather than intentionally, and many of the modern makers say they’ve copied an “original.” They might have, but which original was that? None of the copies I’ve handled have been very close to the originals I’ve owned. They’ve all been “improved” and are nearly always significantly larger and/or with significantly different rims.

It seems that “Helleberg” may have been at times used as a set of specifications while other times used as a style with varying specifications, even when considered to be original.

Even the "back-in-day" SEAR-HELLEBERGs came in two sizes, and I don't remember that there was any difference outwardly marked...

. . . and I take it that the Floyd Cooley Hellebergs are quite rare now (?).

Weren't they just a bored-out 7B?

Tom wrote:I’ve owned a handful of “original” Hellebergs off and on over the years (none currently). No two that I’ve had have been exactly the same.

However, just as reported by others, all of the examples that I’ve had have been much more like the modern 7B than today’s Conn Helleberg.

There were multiple sizes of “original” Hellebergs, perhaps accidentally rather than intentionally, and many of the modern makers say they’ve copied an “original.” They might have, but which original was that? None of the copies I’ve handled have been very close to the originals I’ve owned. They’ve all been “improved” and are nearly always significantly larger and/or with significantly different rims.

It seems that “Helleberg” may have been at times used as a set of specifications while other times used as a style with varying specifications, even when considered to be original.

When the Conn Hellebergs were being made in the 1930s, they did not change the bits on the lathes as often as one would think. The lathe bits wore down during the process so that the mouthpieces made at the beginning of the run were different from the end of the run. Players at the time would try any number of mouthpieces to find one that they especially liked, and then they would hang on to it for dear life. This is what I refer to in my post above, when I said Dave Fedderly allowed one of Mr. Jacobs stage mouthpieces to be copied by Warburton.

I agree with you that there now seems to be a lot of Helleberg "style" mouthpieces, which seem to be characterized by deep funnel shaped cups and maybe a flat rim.

GC wrote:Weren't they just a bored-out 7B?

I don't think so. I have two, a Cooley Helleberg, and a Cooley Helleberg 2, and the outer shape of the blank seems to be different than the 7B.