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Hey friends,

Check it out! https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZsTBunWDhse8Fdee7
Had been curious about this horn since I saw it on my local Craigslist a few weeks back. Decided to go check it out this afternoon, and well... Now it's mine. Actually traded it for a YBB-105 (side note, does anyone know how to track down the year of a Yamaha based on its serial number?) and both of us walked away happy with the trade. As far as I've been able to tell, the serial dates this horn to late 1950's. The seller shined up the raw brass so it looks shiny... for now. I was curious if anyone knows anything about this era of Besson EEbs and would care to share. This thing sings! I love the sound and was surprised how manageable the intonation is. Super free blowing, low register pops and the false tones actually "slot" fairly well. Anyways, just wanted to share and I appreciate any knowledge about these horns that anyone wants to share. Also, curious about mouthpiece recommendations (appears to be the small "British" size receiver, as standard shanks only go in a 1/4 inch and are unusable). The mouthpiece it came with appears to be a Bessson as well ("Made in England"); the silver plating is fairly worn on it and I don't particularly care for the taste of brass.

Thanks!

Congrats! Good looking horn! What size bell is that? just curious.

22.25 inches!

toakstertuba wrote:Also, curious about mouthpiece recommendations (appears to be the small "British" size receiver, as standard shanks only go in a 1/4 inch and are unusable).

There are not a whole lot of options, mainly Denis Wick models with no L suffix, e.g. 3 not 3L. Mainly I'm here to recommend that you not expect the Kelly small shank to fit - it's small, but not small enough.

Thanks Donn! Occasionally, I see the -s designation pop up on the old PT line of F and Eb mp's. I'm guessing that would fit in there too yeah?

"Bloke"should have just what you need for a mouthpiece - he uses the same sort of axe for a lot of gigs and his blow pipes (Blokepieces) are frequently recommended here.

I am curious to hear what Joe uses on his old Besson as it sounds like it's a pretty similar horn (except his is the 3+1 compensating version... I'm not jealous... yes I am).

grab da fone. Those are a very good family of instruments which can be used for most anything, I used a 4v for several years in an aust army band and had fun doint it.

Looks like it's a high pitch one if the slide is all that way out?

Hi!

I'd sit down with a tuner to check if it's modern pitch or older, higher 'band' pitch. Besson produced both for a period, and 1950s certainly is in that period.

Second, for another bit of mouthpiece suggestion, Doug Elliott makes shanks to fit the old Besson shank size. Otherwise, you could change the shank to a modern one. It'd be cheaper than buying a new mouthpiece.

toakstertuba wrote:Hey friends,
Check it out! https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZsTBunWDhse8Fdee7
Had been curious about this horn since I saw it on my local Craigslist a few weeks back......
Thanks!

Good catch. I have the identical instrument, but with the fourth valve. I always regretted selling my King 2340 Recording and this is a fine replacement. I play mine weekly (in the basement) - it's like training with ski boots on. In my Recording model I use the Wick #1. Plays great. Sometime I will machine down an old King #26 and try that out as well. This tuba comes out once a year for a specific band engagement.

AndyCat wrote:Looks like it's a high pitch one if the slide is all that way out?

Yeah, I noticed that pretty quick when I sat with a tuner. Still has a little bit of room, and it was ~85 in my tiny little room when I was honkin on it. Curious to try again this morning now that it's cooled down in my tuba room.

olaness1 wrote:Hi!

I'd sit down with a tuner to check if it's modern pitch or older, higher 'band' pitch. Besson produced both for a period, and 1950s certainly is in that period.

Second, for another bit of mouthpiece suggestion, Doug Elliott makes shanks to fit the old Besson shank size. Otherwise, you could change the shank to a modern one. It'd be cheaper than buying a new mouthpiece.

Thanks for that. I'll check my local repairman if that's something he could offer.

I appreciate the info everyone! This horn is a lot of fun to play, and I intend to use it for primarily jazz bands, and my own enjoyment.

For those who know: ballpark guess how much would it cost to add a 4th valve to this horn, and is it (in your opinion) worth it? I'm already happily putting some $ into swapping out the receiver and some dent removal. And I'd gladly spend some more to be able to have some alternate fingerings/avoid some false tones. I also have a stellar brass tech that I believe would do a great job. Okay so maybe I just talked myself into it, but still want to hear opinions and even suggestions of where to source the components for such an installation? I'm ever-grateful for the wisdom of the Tubenet.

If this is an excellent blower with tight valves then it is definitely worth putting on 2 valves. They should be IMO rotary and for the left hand.

The difficulty is that these are tightly wrapped below the valves and the bore expands quickly just there so I would experiment first. Put in a temporary length of cylindrical tubing where the valves will go as well. Also add the expansion just after them to match up with the conical bore. Then blow it. Then just install the valves to ensure it still blows even with the deflection of the sound waves through the valves.

If that works your tech can find and cannibalise an old smashed up Eb or F rotary horn or enjoy using his tube bending skills to the full. Old rotary valves are usually pretty good have found.

NOTE: the additional tubing needed for the lowest notes is massive and, as this is not a CC or BBb, if you need to play low GG FF EEE etc. in tune you will need at least 29 inches on the 5th valve. If there is plenty of extra tubing then they speak far better because you have no lipping down problems. This gives far better tuning than a 4 valve compensator.

Independent 5th valve @74 cms
with 4th @136 cms

Valve/cms added [ cms and % sharp or flat]
5[74] -3 [0.5% flat]
2+5 [106] +0.5
4[136] 00
2+4[160] -8[1.5%]
13+5[201]] -1
24+5[234] -4 [0.5%]
124+5[284] +7[1%]
234+5[311] -6 [0.6%]
1234+5[361] +1

One cannot hear these discrepancies.

However, for the tiny amount of extra weight [and cannibalised tubing is proportionally quite cheap], I would strongly recommend to do what I do on EEb and F tubas which is, yes, an extra one and half tone for the 4th valve, BUT then the 5th should be a full tritone - three and one half tones. You can then play E and A perfectly on that one valve but also play perfectly in tune all the way down to EEE with a few alternative fingerings available. By using the tritone you can finger every semitone down practically perfectly by using exponentially longer tubing eg Ab 5+1; GG 1,3+4; GGb 4+5: FF 1,4+5; EEE 2,3,4+5. Also, if ever needed, you have a party trick because you can slur from EEEb to EEE using the 1st valve.

Obviously for Bierkeller playing this is unnecessary but if you want ever to sell this as an orchestral tuba or simply create a perfect instrument I would personally do this. It will be better tune than its cousin the Sovereign compensator. [At least it has Sovereign valve caps.]

Great find!

Here's how we used to tune 3-valve horns with no comp:
1) Tune the open bugle
2) Tune #1 and #2 just a hair flat
3) Check 1+2, it should be just a hair sharp
4) Pull 3 and set it so 2+3 is a hair flat and 1+3 is a hair sharp
You will have to have good lipping to pitch, because if anybody can tell me how to trigger or otherwise "ride throttle" on a descending valve slide, I'm all ears.
You may or may not have good privileged tones, if not, the lowest usable note is 1+3 BBb, as 1+2+3 with no comp is rather sharp.